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Model S Performance vs BMW M5
- Thread starter CapitalistOppressor
- Start date
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure a production Roadster will do the same if you do consecutive laps. Model S is water cooled so it doesn't suffer from the same issue as the Roadster on the track (which is why it can beat the Roadster's times). Like strider said the cars tested are prototypes so the production car numbers can go either way.
Plus I wouldn't really say the driver who got 1:51 was a "pro" as in a racing driver as chrisn was saying. The driver was vehicle dynamics engineer Sean Wheeler and I believe he falls more on the engineer side that the racing side. So I think the time should have room for improvement.
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/07/09/refuel-2012-is-the-undoubtedly-the-best-refuel-ever-w-video/
We should see plenty of numbers from Model S owners in the next refuel-2013 to compare.
I was at Refuel 2012 in my Volt (but was not allowed to do a Time Trial lap for religious reasons-- apparently lugging around an ICE that is not running is an unfair advantage), at least one of the MSPs (Black one I think) was stripped like a race car (had a James Bond sticker on it). Also had stickers inside saying stability control was not present, etc, etc. It certainly looked like it was prepped for maximum performance--- but who knows. Anyone know if that was the car that did the fastest lap?
Without pro drivers in both cars (with lots of laps for them to get things dialed in), it is a bit silly to compare laptimes, but the fact is that I (as a novice) did better than each and every MSP and each and every MSP driver, when several of those drivers presumably had more track experience than me and/or more experience with the MSP than I had with my M5 (other than slow laps at Nurburgring, that was the first day I had it on track).
Anyway, I eagerly await more "controlled" testing data. As I said upthread, it would be dumb to buy an M5 just because it is faster than an MSP, but it does seem to be faster....
I was at Refuel in my Chevy Volt (where I did not get a clean lap and was excluded from the time trial, but was doing 2:10-ish in traffic).
On a different day, I was at Laguna in my 2013 BMW M5 (F10). I ran a 1:47, which is faster (by wide margin) than any of the Teslas at the prior Refuel event.
No contradictions with Brian H I don't think.
Does that help?
I cannot reconcile the bit about the "late production" versus the stripped mule I saw. We just need to ask Sean Wheeler (i) if his best time was in the black stripped car or a factory-equipped production car and (ii) if the software limiters in the car were same as customer cars or "tuned up/allowed to push the envelope more."
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The "stripped" car was a pre-production prototype that existed before the interior was finalized (before the Beta model). I'll have to dig up a picture of it, but it was not stripped as a race/performance version of the car, but rather it was built that way in the first place.
Found it right here (it's the all black car and there are pictures of the interior too showing the steering wheel):
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/tesla-model-s-development/#photo-3985343
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Got it. That makes sense. As you said, real production results could go skew either way. In any case, there appeared to be at least a couple hundred pounds of standard equipment/trim "not present" in the car.
As an aside, I tracked down Sean and asked him for clarification-- which I think he can do without revealing state secrets....
This is interesting, because the Roadster is supposed to be quicker than the chase car in the video following the blue M5 (My Porsche Cayman). Yet, I am running at a pace intended to follow the M5 and get it on video, which , arguably, puts me at faster than the M5 on that track. The Porsche Cayman is no M5. It is the "Porsche for people who can't afford a real Porsche". Basically a hard topped Boxster. Not exactly what you would call a "performance car" or a "sports car". Zero torque at zero RPM, and at it's best on par with the Volt in the Torque category. But in the hands of a novice (first time at Laguna in this car) it bests the Roadsters by 15 seconds a lap. Something doesn't make sense. Here are the two cars together just in case anyone thinks I might be driving a 911 in the video.
It will be cool to see laps from Model S cars as they head out on the track.
I think it was more than a year before we had "pro" lap times on a track with Tesla's Roadster. Then you have to know the track and if it favors quick accelerating cars, turning cars or long straightaway cars. Then it cam be compared to what all the other cars can do on that track and if the are totally stock or not.
And don't forget weather conditions. The Stig ran the Roadster around the TG track mildly wet.
And don't forget weather conditions. The Stig ran the Roadster around the TG track mildly wet.
I think the roadster tops out in speed as the model S would do on the straight stretch (or not? I haven't been to any tracks, only driven on Playstation years ago).
The top speed I hit on the track that day was 109 mph. Laguna is a relatively tight track that should favor a Roadster for at least a single lap. I am pretty sure the Roadsters at Thunderhill made it through a complete lap before they were affected by heat. The 2.5 advertises that it performs "in any climate" now. I assume that improvements have been made.
FYI, I just looked at my TraqMate data and see that my top speed on fast laps in the M5 was 124 mph, so below the Model S limiter which is 130 mph I think. I think the Roadster is limited to 125 mph, so again that should not be a factor.
Just to be clear, my car is 100.0% bone stock, fresh from dealer literally the day before (still has cardboard plates on)--- although we did break it in in Germany before shipping home.
Just to be clear, my car is 100.0% bone stock, fresh from dealer literally the day before (still has cardboard plates on)--- although we did break it in in Germany before shipping home.
Cool. That's what I was thinking as I wrote that. i didn't see track straightaway distances when I looked at the track layout. I am a little surprised that the S didn't reach its limit just based on my 1 drive in Fremont. I was up to 110 with a full car on the return into the Factory (~.4-mi 30-110+) - but the next 20 mph at that speed comes pretty quick (length wise - maybe 10 sec & 1/3 mile?)
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
I have no racing experience so I'm not intending to sway the discussion one way or the other, but I seem to recall that not long before first Model S customer deliveries in July, Elon asked the engineers to squeeze more power out of the Model S drivetrain. I vaguely remember this being a fairly significant improvement somewhere in the 30-100mph speed band. Would this have been after the Refuel event? This might mean that more recent MSPs are faster.
Todd: perhaps, but Cottonwood reports that his MSP entered reduced power mode before his Roadster with same track/day/driver, making the Roadster faster than MSP in his test.
Both could be true: one-off 0-100 runs are one thing, but sustained full load asks a heavier toll on all systems. Production MSPs could be faster in straight line, but slower during extended hard driving. An analogy: Even cheap cars can brake from 60 to zero a couple of times before brake fade, but it's hard to build a street car that can also be abused on track all day and still deliver peak performance.
Both could be true: one-off 0-100 runs are one thing, but sustained full load asks a heavier toll on all systems. Production MSPs could be faster in straight line, but slower during extended hard driving. An analogy: Even cheap cars can brake from 60 to zero a couple of times before brake fade, but it's hard to build a street car that can also be abused on track all day and still deliver peak performance.
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This will be settled when some person with a Model S Perf bumps into a M5 owner.
They will make a nice video, place it on YouTube and we can all watch the M5 being owned
So far, the videos available show the opposite. We should get a Model S out on the track with ChrisN in his M5
so we can show how much better the Model S is.
For all involved, I hope this never happens.
Fake Edit: Oh, you didn't mean literally..
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