Model S Performance vs BMW M5

[Warrenbonz]

Originally posted by Rowan
"The Tesla is fun in a different way: it is effortless, just push on the accelerator and steer. Admittedly, it is also a new experience and so perhaps some of the thrill of this car is related to the novelty, which, like all things new and exciting will dull with time. "


I am happy to say that after a little over 4000 miles in my Roadster over the past 6 months that the thrill of driving it has not worn off in the least. (my fun car prior to the Roadster was a C5 c0rvette that I bought many years ago) I am blown away every time I drive the Roadster. :biggrin: I think the Model S will be very similar. It is exciting to think about all the new people that will get to enjoy this kind of driving experience in the near future.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

I was the one who wrote that review. It is here: Rowan Trollope | Test drive - Tesla model S - AWESOME

The car that I compared the Tesla Model S (perf. edition) against was a 2010 BMW M6 convertible. I have a manual transmission, so no launch control. I just looked up the zero to 60 times here BMW 0-60 Times & BMW Quarter Mile Times | BMW E36, X5, BMW M3 0-60, M5, M6, M1, 330, Z4 and Cabrio Bimmer 0 to 60 stats!, which lo and behold reports a 4.5 second zero to 60, vs the Tesla claimed 4.4 second zero to 60... Like I said, it feels faster, and it IS faster. The other point is that to get the claimed 4.5 seconds on the BMW one must be practiced at launching the car, not spinning the wheels, etc. etc.

When I went to test drive the Tesla, I felt I would probably keep the M6 as a weekend car because I wanted to keep the "performance" car. After being wowed by the Tesla performance, the only reason I'll have for keeping the M6 over the Tesla S is for the convertible. Now I will be the first to admit that these are radically different cars, however if one was to compare an M5 to a Tesla, you'd be looking at two much more comparable cars.

I would also point out that the handling is FAR superior in the Tesla (at least it felt that way to me). Furthermore the electronics in the Tesla make the M6 (and every other car on the road for that matter) look like a complete dinosaur. I absolutely look forward to taking these to the track, and my (completely uneducated) guess is the Tesla will win.

BTW (and this is frankly quite surprising if true), as reported by the internal computer, on average my M6 gets 9MPG! I am guilt of loving the sound of my engine and driving the engine in the least efficient way possible!

The BMW wins in two areas: 1) Extremely loud and sweet sounding exhaust (mine is an aftermarket exhaust), and 2) (this is my general impression) fit and finish are superior on the BMW.

As kitted out, my signature performance Tesla Model S will likely cost 105k plus tax. More expensive that the M6.

One final subjective thought: The Tesla was way more fun to drive. Like WAY more fun. As some commenters have pointed out, to get the full performance of my M6 requires effort. You have to drive it hard, and hold on for dear life, revving the engine to near 8k RPM's, shifting quickly, slamming pedals, etc. All of these things are what I have always considered as "fun" to get the most from my car. The Tesla is fun in a different way: it is effortless, just push on the accelerator and steer. Admittedly, it is also a new experience and so perhaps some of the thrill of this car is related to the novelty, which, like all things new and exciting will dull with time. Like I said, its the difference between a bucking bronco and a rocket ship. They are different, but to me, after having ridden MANY bucking bronco's in my life, I'm ready for the new thrill of driving that the Tesla Model S will usher in. The rocket ship ride.

All hail Tesla.

haha.. when I started this thread I couldn't remember where I had read your review and I misremembered your car as being an M5.

I had spent the evening arguing with some folks who were just bashing Tesla and were playing up the M5, but while researching M5 stats I decided that the 0-60 numbers were heavily dependent on the launch control and were misleading in many respects. Thinking about the physics of the car and my experience with high performance big cars it made sense to me that that the Model S Performance would outperform it on anything but long straightaways.

And in turns it should be no contest. The Tesla is ~7% heavier than M5 but the Cg is maybe ~20% lower (the numbers I found for M5 are hard to find and are from unreliable sources). Combined with the outstanding weight distribution and real world reviews I am confident that the Model S should handle much better than the M5.

I ended up sending you a quick tweet about the review (which I thought was great).

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

I will be posting a review perhaps Sunday night with a fair comparison of the M5 and the Model S. I feel emotional about both of them, and having had thousands of miles (road, track, city, freeway) behind the wheel of an M5, hopefully it will be an equally relevant one like Rowan's. I have had a go behind the wheel of a roadster, and after I stopped giddily giggling, I realized I had just launched a missile with all of the inherent G-force thrills associated with a continuous push of linearly increasing thrust.

Stay tuned

Awesome!

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Nice post Rowan. I wonder if you have driven a Tesla Roadster? I would guess not since all the emotional parts of driving a performance electric car apply to that Tesla as well.

Your comment about the novelty of this new driving paradigm and how it may fade with time is worth some more consideration. As a 3 year Roadster owner I can say there have been days when the harsher realities of life may have overshadowed the fun of driving the car but when when all things return to normalcy (whatever that is) there is the Roadster. It embodies fun, freedom and wind through the air silence. Remarkably even horrible traffic jams are more tolerable with one foot driving in an electric.
After 47,000 miles my car still brings a smile, it still makes me feel good. One thing I can guarantee you as many recent Model S reviewers have pointed out is that getting back in the old ICE will never be the same. The effort, the heat, the noise and the smoke of internal combustion all seems so old.
Petroleum based transportation is suddenly so dated, like a Victrola or a photographic tin type, or dialing a telephone. Each of those devices have changed the world but even the best ICEs made are still analogous to a quality record player, a 35MM film camera or wireless home phone. Those pale next to the convenience and abilities of MP3s, Digital cameras and smart phones. We still use the same tools but they are updated.
The act of carving out new technology creates collections of antiques as it forms the future. We may still hold nostalgia for the old but for day-to-day living, we prefer the innovation. Digital cars are the new future of transportation.

Actually the comparison that I've been mulling over for the past few weeks is the steam engine. An ICE engine and a steam engine actually have a lot in common. ICE engines have a few features that make them superior to steam for automotive use, one of the biggest being that you don't have to wait to build up a head of steam before you can go with an ICE vehicle.

But at their core, they are both a heat engine that rely on converting thermal energy into mechanical work. From an engineering standpoint I can't think of a particular reason that you couldn't build a very high performance steam engine that operated at extremely high temperatures and pressures. There are limitations from a materials engineering perspective that might keep us from building a steam engine that could be installed in a Porsche. But if hydrocarbons hadn't become widely available when they did engineers could have focused on steam instead and probably the materials and techniques available after a century of effort tailored toward steam COULD have produced a steam powered Porsche.

But given what we know now, why would we do that? Coal is just so dirty compared to gasoline, and ICE engines seem like they would be much simpler to engineer for comparable performance. A steam engine just seems like it is so much more likely to explode and make a mess, and some problems, like the ability to just turn it on and go, might be beyond steam altogether. When you get right down to it, it just seems so much work and bother compared to engines we have available today, which are so simple and modern, while being so much more environmentally friendly. . .

Seriously though, it seems pretty clear that electric is a dramatically superior technology that has been held back by battery technology. But Tesla is proving that for high end vehicles battery tech is already good enough to compete head to head with the best ICE vehicles ever developed, whether you measure by performance or value. We are still a ways away from being able to compete with the Honda Fit's of the world but trends are clearly pointing in that direction.

P.S. On a completely unrelated note, I was trolling an NRA forum this evening. Very positive comments about Model S. The guy who likes to constantly cite the Jalopnik "bricking" story was there (see note), but the NRA dudes were very pro Tesla in comparison to how they bash Volt. Common sentiment - "at least its not Government Motors" "Designed and built by Americans for Americans" "100% non-union" "Doesn't use any Saudi gas." "High tech" "I'd much rather give my tax dollars to Tesla than some crackhead" (keep in mind, this is an NRA forum). The guy who started the thread had taken a test drive and reserved an MS60.

Note - He is everywhere on the internet. A paid contra-advertising operation I suspect. Very common phrasing, link to Jalopnik, cites the Roadster manual and uploads copies of the relevant pages, non-conversational, just a quick "But is it a Brick?" hit job.

 

[CyberDutchie]

P.S. On a completely unrelated note, I was trolling an NRA forum this evening. Very positive comments about Model S. The guy who likes to constantly cite the Jalopnik "bricking" story was there (see note), but the NRA dudes were very pro Tesla in comparison to how they bash Volt. Common sentiment - "at least its not Government Motors" "Designed and built by Americans for Americans" "100% non-union" "Doesn't use any Saudi gas." "High tech" "I'd much rather give my tax dollars to Tesla than some crackhead" (keep in mind, this is an NRA forum). The guy who started the thread had taken a test drive and reserved an MS60.

That's so interesting, do you have a link? Any mention of Musk? I suspect they may like him. Musk met with Governor Rick Perry, a devoted NRA supporter, a few weeks ago to discuss plans for a SpaceX launch site in Texas.

But getting off topic here, sorry.

 

[vfx]

Personally I think anything more than 110/120mph is a waste of engineering,

I will use this line!

 

[ggr]

Originally posted by Rowan
"The Tesla is fun in a different way: it is effortless, just push on the accelerator and steer. Admittedly, it is also a new experience and so perhaps some of the thrill of this car is related to the novelty, which, like all things new and exciting will dull with time. "


I am happy to say that after a little over 4000 miles in my Roadster over the past 6 months that the thrill of driving it has not worn off in the least. (my fun car prior to the Roadster was a C5 c0rvette that I bought many years ago) I am blown away every time I drive the Roadster. :biggrin: I think the Model S will be very similar. It is exciting to think about all the new people that will get to enjoy this kind of driving experience in the near future.

I have to agree; the roadster has been my daily drive for almost exactly 3 years, and it never wears off.

Something else in this thread that no-one seems to have mentioned: Roadster acceleration is free (except for tires I guess), and you can do it again and again and again. Launch control on the M5 is very definitely NOT free. I can't remember the details, but I had a deposit on an M5 at one time, and there was a warning somewhere that said using it more than a couple of times a month would void the warranty on the clutch. Replacing those clutches is expensive.

 

[W8MM]

If the Model S can feel fast/quick and outperform ICEs in the 0-80mph range, that will help sell more cars than if it can hit 180mph. Many people love the feeling of unlimited acceleration and can't thankfully usually get it up past 80-100 on public roads so don't notice that it may fall off.

^^ I completely agree.

It's the difference between bench racing and just having fun while one drives.

The 500+ horsepower cars that I own have to be taken to the track to enjoy in full. On the street, they're almost annoying because of having to hold them back in traffic.

The electric powered cars are such a hoot at low speed because of the completely effortless way they accelerate. One doesn't need to feel like the car needs thrashing to make it really go. The lack of drama while accelerating is completely opposite of a high-performance ICE car. It's so nice to be able "re-arrange" one's position in traffic without loudly announcing to lookers-on that one is up to something. Stealth fun is more regularly accessible fun!

 

[Rifleman]

P.S. On a completely unrelated note, I was trolling an NRA forum this evening. Very positive comments about Model S. The guy who likes to constantly cite the Jalopnik "bricking" story was there (see note), but the NRA dudes were very pro Tesla in comparison to how they bash Volt. Common sentiment - "at least its not Government Motors" "Designed and built by Americans for Americans" "100% non-union" "Doesn't use any Saudi gas." "High tech" "I'd much rather give my tax dollars to Tesla than some crackhead" (keep in mind, this is an NRA forum). The guy who started the thread had taken a test drive and reserved an MS60.

Small world, I was the guy who started that thread (It would be redundant to post as rifleman on a gun forum, so I post under a different name there)

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Small world, I was the guy who started that thread (It would be redundant to post as rifleman on a gun forum, so I post under a different name there)

Haha, nice

There was EV hate there, but nothing like what I would have expected after seeing what Volt went through. One of the first responses referred to imminent flamage but there was probably more support than hate on the thread.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

That's so interesting, do you have a link? Any mention of Musk? I suspect they may like him. Musk met with Governor Rick Perry, a devoted NRA supporter, a few weeks ago to discuss plans for a SpaceX launch site in Texas.

But getting off topic here, sorry.

I Drove a Tesla Model S today - AR15.COM

 

[Rifleman]

Haha, nice

There was EV hate there, but nothing like what I would have expected after seeing what Volt went through. One of the first responses referred to imminent flamage but there was probably more support than hate on the thread.

I started the thread expecting flames, but we have to win over hearts and minds, and sometimes the only way to do that is to open yourself up to flames. I am proof that gun loving, global warming skeptical, fiscally conservative people can love EV's too.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

I started the thread expecting flames, but we have to win over hearts and minds, and sometimes the only way to do that is to open yourself up to flames. I am proof that gun loving, global warming skeptical, fiscally conservative people can love EV's too.

I originally came to EV's and fuel efficiency through my interest in national security. Our peacetime operations budget in the Middle East runs to ~$80 billion/year. That's completely aside from Iraq related expenses over the last 2 decades, Afghanistan in the last decade and added homeland security costs since 9/11. Mass producing 10mpg SUV's isn't a great idea regardless of the environmental issues.

And when you get right down to it, modern batteries are now good enough to build amazing cars. Price needs to fall more, but thats a reason to support more production now, because cars like the Model S will help drive down battery costs as companies respond to the sales opportunity with increased R&D.

Cars like the M5 are fun, but I'd rather buy a Model S that does something to improve the health and welfare of the nation, while still being a hoot to drive. (topic tie in sentence)

 

[W8MM]

I am proof that gun loving, global warming skeptical, fiscally conservative people can love EV's too.

Me, too. Must be something in the water around here

 

[AustinPowers]

...After 3 Porsches, 4 Ferraris, 2 TVRs, 3 Lotus'es, 4 Group B rally cars, 2 Astons, 2 RS6's, 2 Quattro's, various track cars, 1 BMW (!) and dozens of hot hatch backs etc, and around 2,000+ miles in a BMW M5 V10 …. I just do not want any more ICE cars, no matter how brilliant they might be round the ring.

After 1 Tesla, I doubt I will ever buy another ICE car ever again. I just don’t see the point of them anymore.

My goodness.
In my simple math that equates to roughly 50+ cars!
How old are you? Or did you own 5 cars at once? Or did you just rent/race as professional all of these cars?
Even my cousin, who changes cars quite often, has just managed his thirteenth car by now.

For comparison, I have been driving for seventeen years, and I'm only onto my second car :wink:

Granted, if I consider all the cars I have ever driven the count would go up to about thirty. But apart from a Porsche, non of those where anywhere near as exotic as the collection you mentioned.

 

[unclfuzzy]

Sorry, I prefer my naming conventions over Tesla's and my opinion is the one that counts

Seriously though, I am aware of Roadster 2, but it was not a real technological departure from the original Roadster. In the software terminology I was using I'd consider Roadster 2 to be Roadster v1.1 or v1.2. Meaning essentially it was an improvement on an existing design. The improvement was substantial but it was the same basic platform.

If there is going to be a next Roadster (which might not even be named Roadster) it will be a ground up design by Tesla rather than a re-purposed Lotus Elise.

Of course the nice thing about the modern software industry is that if you feel stuck in an argument about whether the next version should be 2.0, 2.5, or 3.0, you can just completely change directions and call it Tesla XP, Tesla Snow Leopard, or whatever. I vote for next version of the Model S to be called Millenium Falcon, maybe Roadster could be called Landspeeder.

 

[W8MM]

My goodness.
In my simple math that equates to roughly 50+ cars!
How old are you? Or did you own 5 cars at once? Or did you just rent/race as professional all of these cars?

I'm in my second half-century, a car guy, and that history seems plenty reasonable to me because it's not so different from mine

 

[AustinPowers]

...Cars like the M5 are fun, but I'd rather buy a Model S that does something to improve the health and welfare of the nation, while still being a hoot to drive. (topic tie in sentence)

That is something that I think is interesting when looking at it from an outsider's point of view.
Being German I should naturally be a sceptic when it comes to Americans building a car that they call "the best car on the market" while at the same time being a car that is eco-friendly - both points that American cars have never been known for.

Now with Tesla and the Model S - for all its shortcomings in its 1.0 guise - I really think you as Americans should be proud as hell that a Silicon Valley startup in the automotive industry has created such a formidable machine, as

a) it looks as great IMHO as no other US car I can remember (with the exception of some Corvettes from the Fifties possibly)
b) it offers obviously great performance like no other EV that also boasts the same amount of trunk/frunk space
c) it features state of the art entertainment and customization possibilities that no other automaker offers to that extent - at least not at the moment

Therefore - thumbs up and (yes, I really hope that) let's hope that when it ships to Europe, the Model S manages to kick some European automakers' ass! ;-)

 

[PV4EV]

My goodness.
In my simple math that equates to roughly 50+ cars!
How old are you? Or did you own 5 cars at once? Or did you just rent/race as professional all of these cars?
Even my cousin, who changes cars quite often, has just managed his thirteenth car by now.

For comparison, I have been driving for seventeen years, and I'm only onto my second car :wink:

Granted, if I consider all the cars I have ever driven the count would go up to about thirty. But apart from a Porsche, non of those where anywhere near as exotic as the collection you mentioned.

You are correct ! In the past I have had up to 8 cars at once - when I was young/free/single with no dependants etc.

I grew up in a less than desirable family situation with nothing, but had relatives who were car obsessed or into racing/rallying, as well as others with planes/helicopters/ocean going speedboat - basically things with big engines burning their way through planetary resources. At a very young age I had grandfathers visiting in things like Aston DB6's and E-types, all of which left a deep impression on me, and as I ventured out into the world I was strongly driven by the desire to have similar. With good fortune and hard work, this started paying off before I was 30 and in some weird psychological way I started making up for lost time and became very OCD about many material things … including cars. Over the past 20 yrs I've always had quite a few 'vehicles' at any one time, some I've kept for 10+ yrs especially one which I designed and built. Other cars I'll not like after a while, and trade for something else within months. Currently I've been through 38 cars, driven about 600,000 miles, with hundreds of hours of track time too. I've also know that I've spent way more on petrol and petrol tax, than I've lost in car dealings, and if I haven't owned it, I've driven it, or at least been in it :smile:

Funny thing now is that life is going full circle, and I am obsessive about energy harvesting, storing, using, efficiency etc and wanting to go completely off grid, but whilst still having materialistic fun without being an eco-weenie nut job. From what I can tell, I'm not alone …

 

[dsm363]

Funny thing now is that life is going full circle, and I am obsessive about energy harvesting, storing, using, efficiency etc and wanting to go completely off grid, but whilst still having materialistic fun without being an eco-weenie nut job. From what I can tell, I'm not alone …

I'm only on car number 4 but I'm exactly that way. I care about the environment but I'm also very concerned with our energy usage and resource dependence so driving an EV has been great.