Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

[Sam1]

Just came across this thread which really gets going starting with this post from @Knightshade This thread is worth skimming for many of the issues discussed here.

Concerns over Model 3 Performance brakes efficiency. How good is it? After market brakes?

Hi I had a great opportunity to buy a brand-new model 3 performance from someone else. Apparently, he needs that money for his business. The car is arriving mid-late next month. Despite ordering the Performance model, I’ve never driven it. I’ve ridden in it. It was amazingly quick as my head...

teslamotorsclub.com

That dude also states that the type of brake system on any car is irrelevant. You just need good tires. And he always quotes one person for proof he's right.

He even refused to accept a video test from the Mercedes Benz factory, showing that different brake pads and rotors on two identical cars, performed differently. The video was published on Mercedes own YouTube channel.

But all of those engineers are dummies I guess...

 

[DayTrippin]

Fundamentally, the tires are the limiting factor just like the tires were the limiting factor for the Plaid to do the 1.99 0-60. The old saying of the rubber meeting the road. Here are some videos, two from the same person but worth watching. The third is the follow-up to the second one after a lot of feedback was received.

 

[MarcG]

Bigger brake rotors dissipate more heat, so when doing a lot of *repeated* and frequent hard braking (e.g. on a race track) bigger rotors help.

 

[bhzmark]

That last video above is excellent. Funny point about video games influencing people’s thinking on this too — stock is crap and you have to get mods, just like in Gran Turismo !!!

That dude also states that the type of brake system on any car is irrelevant. You just need good tires. And he always quotes one person for proof he's right.

He even refused to accept a video test from the Mercedes Benz factory, showing that different brake pads and rotors on two identical cars, performed differently. The video was published on Mercedes own YouTube channel.

But all of those engineers are dummies I guess...

Well I think he makes the point, also made crystal clear in the last video above, that for normal stopping needs for normal driving, including emergency stops from highway speeds with cold (perhaps ice cold) brakes, normal OEM brakes are just fine since all they need to do is brake hard enough to exercise the ABS and any variation on stopping distance is a function of tires (and perhaps ABS system).

But others pointed out that there are aspects of brake performance such as performance when overheated from track or track type usage.

I didnt see the MB video and not sure which aspect of “performed differently” you are referring to — certainly performance when overheated from repeated track type usage is a function of operating temp range of the brake system, especially the pads and fluid.

My primary need for brakes off the track is excellent cold performance — I frequently drive on the highway and don’t touch the brakes for tens of miles at a time and might need to make an emergency stop from high speed with ice cold brakes. And I want the brakes to start working immediately — and not have to come up to warmer operating temperature for even a fraction of a second which can mean a longer emergency stopping distance. Any pad with a higher operating temperature on the hot end will likely have a higher operating temperature range on the cold end too and simply will not work as well when ice cold and need to come up to temp.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Tesla track package pads actually take longer to stop when ice cold than the stock brakes. That’s probably why the stock Plaid brakes shorter from 100 mph than the BMW M5 CS with carbon ceramic brakes and wider tires. Although maybe Tesla found some magic pad (at a price) that works well when cold too.

 

[DayTrippin]

I liked the last vid I posted a lot. It really speaks to the mindset of people and how we have become indoctrinated in a lot of ways.

At the end of the day, It is all about compromise and what your priorities are. @bhzmark is a perfect example of knowing what he needs and understanding the stock brakes are probably optimal, or close to it, for his needs.

I would say 90-95% of my driving mirrors bhzmark's. The problem is will I track the car enough, to really warrant the track pack. I have found a that repeated braking from high speeds over taxes the stock brakes in a hurry. I know firsthand how scary brake fade can be on the track and on the road.

So I am torn about do I go all in on the track pack, which is my inclination, and then maybe have to deal with longer emergency stops when I am not on the track. I had an issue where it was a near miss from someone pulling out in front of me where I could have measure the distance to almost impact in inches rather than feet. Realistically it was less than 2 feet from hitting the person. Cold tires didn't help me either but adding cold tires with cold brakes on a track biased setup might have resulted in a collision.

Maybe just going with better rotors, fluid change and "better" pads might be the best option for my planned usage. Or maybe I go all in with the track package and find better pads to use when I am on the street and swap out as needed. I am not sure if there will be more street friendly pads available for the factory track package or not. Maybe the ones that come with it are pretty good for street use. I have learned that with stock I get pretty much one good hard brake from triple digit speeds and I've met their thermal capacity or just started to exceed it.

At this point I am going to see what the early feedback looks like and then make a decision. Rarely is there have your cake and eat it too scenario with anything.

 

[Sam1]

I liked the last vid I posted a lot. It really speaks to the mindset of people and how we have become indoctrinated in a lot of ways.

At the end of the day, It is all about compromise and what your priorities are. @bhzmark is a perfect example of knowing what he needs and understanding the stock brakes are probably optimal, or close to it, for his needs.

I would say 90-95% of my driving mirrors bhzmark's. The problem is will I track the car enough, to really warrant the track pack. I have found a that repeated braking from high speeds over taxes the stock brakes in a hurry. I know firsthand how scary brake fade can be on the track and on the road.

So I am torn about do I go all in on the track pack, which is my inclination, and then maybe have to deal with longer emergency stops when I am not on the track. I had an issue where it was a near miss from someone pulling out in front of me where I could have measure the distance to almost impact in inches rather than feet. Realistically it was less than 2 feet from hitting the person. Cold tires didn't help me either but adding cold tires with cold brakes on a track biased setup might have resulted in a collision.

Maybe just going with better rotors, fluid change and "better" pads might be the best option for my planned usage. Or maybe I go all in with the track package and find better pads to use when I am on the street and swap out as needed. I am not sure if there will be more street friendly pads available for the factory track package or not. Maybe the ones that come with it are pretty good for street use. I have learned that with stock I get pretty much one good hard brake from triple digit speeds and I've met their thermal capacity or just started to exceed it.

At this point I am going to see what the early feedback looks like and then make a decision. Rarely is there have your cake and eat it too scenario with anything.

I can't speak of the Tesla CCB setup, but the Unplugged CCBs (lightweight ones with track pads) I have, have zero measurable loss in performance when cold, and significant gains if you get them to operating temps first from 70-0. From triple digit speeds cold or hot, whatever there's an enormous difference. At the drag strip on a sticky surface I did a 70-0 with cold CCBs and it was almost 10 feet shorter than when I did it with the completely OEM setup on the same spot - measured by dragy, not a seat of the pants estimate. *This was with the original brake pads, not sure if the updated ones would have made a difference.

If you start looking at a brake setup because of inches, you're going to miss the forest because you're staring at a tree. That could easily be dismissed by having 10% more dust on the road than the other one you tested on.

 

[Sam1]

Bigger brake rotors dissipate more heat, so when doing a lot of *repeated* and frequent hard braking (e.g. on a race track) bigger rotors help.

They also disperse the applied pressure, reducing the probability of locking up. More surface area = less PSI = smoother and softer.

 

[DayTrippin]

I can't speak of the Tesla CCB setup, but the Unplugged CCBs (lightweight ones with track pads) I have, have zero measurable loss in performance when cold, and significant gains if you get them to operating temps first from 70-0. From triple digit speeds cold or hot, whatever there's an enormous difference. At the drag strip on a sticky surface I did a 70-0 with cold CCBs and it was almost 10 feet shorter than when I did it with the completely OEM setup on the same spot - measured by dragy, not a seat of the pants estimate. *This was with the original brake pads, not sure if the updated ones would have made a difference.

If you start looking at a brake setup because of inches, you're going to miss the forest because you're staring at a tree. That could easily be dismissed by having 10% more dust on the road than the other one you tested on.

Thanks for the info. My point about the inches being an issue, is sometimes they do matter. I am not focused on it, just an awareness in my day to day driving in a dense urban environment. So many things can matter but I don't want to bias braking too much toward the track.

I would love to be able to adjust my front to rear braking bias on the car. It is seems very biased toward the front which I get from a safety perspective but stopping distance suffers. It would be awesome if Tesla offered that adjustment in the track mode.

 

[Sam1]

I would love to be able to adjust my front to rear braking bias on the car. It is seems very biased toward the front which I get from a safety perspective but stopping distance suffers. It would be awesome if Tesla offered that adjustment in the track mode.

You can, but more $ I think MPP does it through Motec.

 

[DayTrippin]

Here is an interesting vid. Outcome is like you'd expect. I am posting it here for the braking content. Starting around the 18 minute mark (I've tried to link to the relevant area) they do a stopping test from 100 mph.

I think most people here would know how good Koenigsegg's brakes are. In a test they braked Koengsegg from 250mph back to 0 in under 9 seconds. Take a look and see how a stock Plaid stacks up against it from 100 mph.

Koenigsegg v Tesla Plaid v Turbo Hayabusa: DRAG RACE​

 

[Awiner]

Here is an interesting vid. Outcome is like you'd expect. I am posting it here for the braking content. Starting around the 18 minute mark (I've tried to link to the relevant area) they do a stopping test from 100 mph.

I think most people here would know how good Koenigsegg's brakes are. In a test they braked Koengsegg from 250mph back to 0 in under 9 seconds. Take a look and see how a stock Plaid stacks up against it from 100 mph.

Koenigsegg v Tesla Plaid v Turbo Hayabusa: DRAG RACE​

I wish they would have run this test back to back at least a few times.

 

[DayTrippin]

The vid clearly supports what a lot of people have been saying here, on both sides of the braking capabilities. There was a comment about the track pack brake kit in the vid. Not sure if you caught it. Not that often most people will do stops from 100 to 0 mph in the US.

 

[bhzmark]

Here is an interesting vid. Outcome is like you'd expect. I am posting it here for the braking content. Starting around the 18 minute mark (I've tried to link to the relevant area) they do a stopping test from 100 mph.

for those who dont want to watch the video, the outcome (namely, Tesla Plaid with stock brakes stopping from 100 mph just a couple feet longer than the lighter supercar) debunks the stupid name of this thread and various attempts to support the stupid name of this thread. And the video makes the obvious observation that if you want to use your brakes as if you were on a track to get the track package or other track appropriate brake components.

the video doesnt note that if you improve your brakes for high temp track performance you may degrade them for cold everyday street performance.

 

[DayTrippin]

Good summary but I didn't want to spoil the ending.

It is amazing how well it did on a cold stop to probably one of the most premier cars in the world.

 

[Sam1]

Here is an interesting vid. Outcome is like you'd expect. I am posting it here for the braking content. Starting around the 18 minute mark (I've tried to link to the relevant area) they do a stopping test from 100 mph.

I think most people here would know how good Koenigsegg's brakes are. In a test they braked Koengsegg from 250mph back to 0 in under 9 seconds. Take a look and see how a stock Plaid stacks up against it from 100 mph.

Koenigsegg v Tesla Plaid v Turbo Hayabusa: DRAG RACE​

iirc that's a newer plaid with the different brake pads. Not the older plaids with the crappy pads. The first 2 models had absolutely trash brake pads, and that's where the entire issue lies.

 

[Awiner]

iirc that's a newer plaid with the different brake pads. Not the older plaids with the crappy pads. The first 2 models had absolutely trash brake pads, and that's where the entire issue lies.

Looks like it had the black calipers which came with the prior pads. The 2023 red calipers came fitted with “higher thermal pads”.

 

[MFrunkerOG]

Let’s leave the “quicker to stop than an M5 or supwrcar” people to appreciate their oem brakes.

They feel secure in their videos I feel secure in my new pedal feel!

 

[Sam1]

Looks like it had the black calipers which came with the prior pads. The 2023 red calipers came fitted with “higher thermal pads”.

Good catch, missed that.

 

[bhzmark]

the older plaids with the crappy pads. The first 2 models had absolutely trash brake pads, a

Unsupported and unsupportable nonsense.

Its as if someone has zero reading comprehension leaving them unable to process the specific facts shared throughout this thread. Smh

 

[Snirpo]

Here is an interesting vid. Outcome is like you'd expect. I am posting it here for the braking content. Starting around the 18 minute mark (I've tried to link to the relevant area) they do a stopping test from 100 mph.

I think most people here would know how good Koenigsegg's brakes are. In a test they braked Koengsegg from 250mph back to 0 in under 9 seconds. Take a look and see how a stock Plaid stacks up against it from 100 mph.

Koenigsegg v Tesla Plaid v Turbo Hayabusa: DRAG RACE​

This is my car btw. And this was the result after the dragrace:

The brakes were toast, spongy. Only a few hard stops (with big pauses in between) and one single brake test, and the brakes were gone. Pedal went to the floor. Pads were glazed and brake fluid was finished. So I can confirm the standard brake setup is not great. This is indeed the version with the original black brake calipers. The new pads might be better, who knows.
Anyway, if you intend to do some spirited driving or track days. I highly suggest to at least replace the pads and fluid, otherwise you might run into dangerous situations.