Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

[Richbot]

I see RB's forum squad is still part of the customer experience, lol

I like my rear rotors, please don't hurt me

I will say, it's pretty damn hard to get bubbles out of air-filled multi-piston calipers, even with a bench bleed. I hope I never have to replace another one just so I don't have to worry about it ever again

I will also say, the number of times my hand has hovered over one the order button on one of their CCB kits can be counted in the mid-dozens. But I'm a coward

 

[lolachampcar]

Order number 26748.

I don't have to do a review on Rennlist.

To say that 99.9% of Porsche track racers and Pro-teams rebuilt OE calipers with RB components is just bizarre.

The last point had me curious so I gave a bud a call. He has spent his life running Porsche. Championship winning team, LeMans, the works. I asked him if he knew racing brakes. Never heard of them. This is only one data point but I found his response interesting.

 

[Trompazo]

The last point had me curious so I gave a bud a call. He has spent his life running Porsche. Championship winning team, LeMans, the works. I asked him if he knew racing brakes. Never heard of them. This is only one data point but I found his response interesting.

I have nothing against Racing Brake, personally. They provided me with a caliper a needed there was lower profile and OEM which allowed me to fit 18 inch Hoosiers on my GT3. The pedal was very soft despite multiple bleeds. I never complained about this to them. The car still braked okay when needed, it just felt quite different than OEM.

I would actually consider their carbon rotors once I see other's feedback.

I have been on the Corvette forums and Porsche Rennlist for many years. They often post stuff about their products, and there are many arguments on many different forums between them and JRITT of Essex/AP racing.

There are many threads on many forums that are very humorous, This one about restoring carbon rotors with their new pad was quite good:

How to restore your damaged CCM rotors at no cost - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

991 GT3, GT3RS, GT2RS and 911R - How to restore your damaged CCM rotors at no cost - A revolutionary sintered brake pad developed by RacingBrake can do it for you. Not only it can deliver a very high COF (0.65) with consistent brake torque under higher temperature (than irons) when run CCM...

rennlist.com

 

[Elkan]

From what I've seen, the brakes look quite undersized compared to comparable sports cars that aren't near as heavy.

 

[lolachampcar]

From what I've seen, the brakes look quite undersized compared to comparable sports cars that aren't near as heavy.

The thing I find interesting is the Plaid rotors are slightly larger than those on my previous P90D and the Plaid is supposed to be a little lighter and yet my P90D's brakes felt much better and qualitatively stopped shorter (as in, I did not actually measure the stopping distance of each). It would seem this is more of a pad and rotor material issue given the difference in first stop (not thermal soaked) performance of the two.

 

[lolachampcar]

Motor Trend says I am wrong-
Plaid
"0-60: 2.1 seconds
¼ mile: 9.3 seconds at 152.2 mph*
Figure eight: 23.5 seconds at 0.90 g (avg)
60-0: 104 feet"

"2016 Tesla Model X P90D Ludicrous
0-60: 3.2 seconds
¼ mile: 11.7 seconds at 116.0 mph
Figure eight: 25.1 seconds at 0.78 g (avg)
60-0: 106 feet"

Here’s Every Tesla We’ve Tested So Far

From the Roadster to the new Model S Plaid.

www.motortrend.com

I guess they just feel like crap

 

[bhzmark]

Motor Trend says I am wrong-
Plaid
"0-60: 2.1 seconds
¼ mile: 9.3 seconds at 152.2 mph*
Figure eight: 23.5 seconds at 0.90 g (avg)
60-0: 104 feet"

"2016 Tesla Model X P90D Ludicrous
0-60: 3.2 seconds
¼ mile: 11.7 seconds at 116.0 mph
Figure eight: 25.1 seconds at 0.78 g (avg)
60-0: 106 feet"

Here’s Every Tesla We’ve Tested So Far

From the Roadster to the new Model S Plaid.

www.motortrend.com

I guess they just feel like crap

That's the model x p90d. Oddly the s was 109.

It might all be within the margin of testing variability.

 

[bhzmark]

will be very rare for anyone to use 19" wheels who are serious about performance,

Not true. No evidence for thinking low profile outperforms higher profile, and there is evidence that shorter wheels, with more sidewall, perform better. Only reason to go with lower profile is to make room for brakes if there are no good brake upgrade options that fit in the better 19" wheel size.

F1 cars will be 'two seconds slower' with 18-inch tyres | PlanetF1

Mercedes technical director James Allison predicts that the 18-inch tyres coming for 2022 will slow cars down by two seconds per lap.

www.planetf1.com

 

[fastp3d]

Hi guys! Just found this thread and wanted to chime in on my experience. Plaid absolutely needs a reliable brake upgrade. Especially if you're running the track. The UP Plaid I set the BRP EV record with has CC BBK. I'm pretty sure that kit is available now. I can attest to the reliability and have full confidence to run this BBK as hard as I want without any symptoms of failure. It's a solid solution. My Model 3 also has the UP CC BBK. I've run that setup for 30+ track days. No problems to date and I've only replaced the front pads once with routine fluid flushes. I hear some suggesting the OE setup would run fine with Track Mode. I don't agree at all. Yes, stability control certainly puts more stress on the brakes. Track Mode could help by reducing stability control but this is not the solution. It's unlikely Tesla will allow full defeat of stability control through Track Mode. They won't do it on Model 3 TM and it's likely Plaid TM will be a similar build. Even if they did, I have no confidence going 160mph down the front straight of BRP and smashing on the OE brakes. I would be very hesitant to run OE set up on a track day. I highly advise against it. Anyone doing so is running a high risk of failure.

 

[lbowroom]

Since a Model S isn’t an open wheeled race car… you balance sidewall height with brake rotor diameter. Increasing one reduces the other.

 

[lolachampcar]

GiroDisc 2-Piece Slotted Performance Brake Rotors for 2021 Tesla S

REVIEWS GIRODISC TWO-PIECE ROTORS: - Greater Cooling Efficiency - Lighter than stock brakes - Quicker Steering Feel w/Light Vehicles - Quicker Acceleration/Due To Less Rotational Mass - Centrifugal Air Pump Curved Vane Design - Ideal Upgrade Path For Vehicles Seeing Track Use - Less $$ Than OE...

www.buybrakes.com

This is getting good. This might be worth a try. I do wish Essex would move things along with an AP rotor option.

 

[lolachampcar]

Giving these guys a call in the am. Part number crosses to the older cars but web page clearly states 2021.

Security Check

 

[lolachampcar]

This just keep getting better

Brembo GT Drilled Brake Kits for 2021 Tesla S

A Brembo GT Drilled Brake Kit will improve your vehicles braking system tremendously. Call: 888-257-7149 now for the best prices from buybrakes.com

www.buybrakes.com

 

[juanmedina]

GiroDisc 2-Piece Slotted Performance Brake Rotors for 2021 Tesla S

REVIEWS GIRODISC TWO-PIECE ROTORS: - Greater Cooling Efficiency - Lighter than stock brakes - Quicker Steering Feel w/Light Vehicles - Quicker Acceleration/Due To Less Rotational Mass - Centrifugal Air Pump Curved Vane Design - Ideal Upgrade Path For Vehicles Seeing Track Use - Less $$ Than OE...

www.buybrakes.com

This is getting good. This might be worth a try. I do wish Essex would move things along with an AP rotor option.

I don't think those rotors are for the Plaid the OE rotors are Ø380mm

 

[lolachampcar]

EBCs are 365x28 so likely older MS units.... Too good to be true that everyone was reacting so quickly.

 

[Gninoked]

Word from MPP (he might post again here) is that the primary suspect for poor track braking performance on the Plaid is the pads. Tesla appear to have gone with something low friction. My theory is that they wanted good release and modulation at low brake levels for one pedal mode and normal driving. Of course all of us trying to the track the car will nuke them in a few stops, but the same was true of the Model 3 Performance too so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Also re: the Girodisc rotors above - the MPP spec Girodisc 'bigger' prototype for the stock front calipers is on our car and seems to be a good fit. There are a number of factors that define the performance envelope for a brake system of course, so more testing is required. There are some other solutions coming out but I encourage everyone to ask what kind of testing the vendors did, what changes are made to bias, etc. MPP is showing their work and others should as well!

Also the video filmed a couple weeks ago is out. The good news is the car was massively faster in the new configuration, however it still needed more work (and hopefully track mode.) That said there was a *major* issue with the ABS system which you will see!

1) Watch all the way to the end of the video to see Sasha show what he found in the data as the source of the brake issue - it was not a capacity/pad issue.
2) Remember that the car was in a configuration (defeated Vehicle Stability Control) that is not normal, so most likely most Plaid owners will not experience this exact issue! That said it was still a big problem that Bosch/Tesla should fix.

 

[Trompazo]

After multiple delays, I finally got my plaid this weekend.

I took it out to some industrial areas, and did lots of freeway on and off ramps.

I also did about 4 launches and drag strip mode, up to 120 mph due to space.

Even before the launches and high-speed braking, I did some fairly high speed rolling acceleration and slowing down. Immediately, during this period, there was obvious that the car could still stop fine, but the pedal did not feel good. It almost felt like they needed to be bled, as the panel felt soft and squishy. This was before there was much heat in the brakes.

I think that alludes to the fact that the pads are not very good for this use. Which correlates with MPP's comments.

After about 3 launches, not only did the pad feels soft and mushy but there was some fade.

Therefore, first thing I will look at doing is better pads and fluid. I have already emailed Carbotech about 1581 pads. And then next up would be rotors.


Another issue, was that when exiting on ramps onto a straightaway, the car felt neutral and was not even close to losing grip, but there was no power. The car does not put down power until its nearly straight. However, it did not appear that the car was braking to prevent the power, so it did not appear that the brakes are being applied to prevent the power, it appears that there is an algorithm in place on Yaw/steering angle/etc. that prevents the electric motor output. At least it appears that way. If track mode is coming, I would expect this to improve.

I do note in the latest video with Sacha from MPP on the track, the stability control was disabled but at the beginning of the video he explained that the power is still very limited coming out of the corners. Not sure if that is due to traction control or some other algorithm, but it would not be the brakes being applied.

This appears to be evidence that the stability control is not what is killing the brakes on track. The car is not producing power electronically unless nearly straight. If track mode does not come out, hopefully someone like MPP can make something like the Party box like they made for the Model 3. But I believe, there is a video of the Unplugged applied by Randy Probst doing drifts around corners, so they obviously have solved the issue.

That being said, MPP was significantly faster around the track with Camber, larger tires, shock/springs despite stock brakes and being limited on exit power.

 

[lolachampcar]

Did You Know Elon Musk Wrecked an Uninsured McLaren F1?

His last words before sending it: "Watch this."

www.thedrive.com

This may be why Elon is so stability control happy
I know what it is like to run out of talent (first hand) so perhaps erring on the nanny side to start is a good idea.

I thought the last words were always "here, hold my beer"

 

[Gninoked]

After multiple delays, I finally got my plaid this weekend.

I took it out to some industrial areas, and did lots of freeway on and off ramps.

I also did about 4 launches and drag strip mode, up to 120 mph due to space.

Even before the launches and high-speed braking, I did some fairly high speed rolling acceleration and slowing down. Immediately, during this period, there was obvious that the car could still stop fine, but the pedal did not feel good. It almost felt like they needed to be bled, as the panel felt soft and squishy. This was before there was much heat in the brakes.

I think that alludes to the fact that the pads are not very good for this use. Which correlates with MPP's comments.

After about 3 launches, not only did the pad feels soft and mushy but there was some fade.

Therefore, first thing I will look at doing is better pads and fluid. I have already emailed Carbotech about 1581 pads. And then next up would be rotors.


Another issue, was that when exiting on ramps onto a straightaway, the car felt neutral and was not even close to losing grip, but there was no power. The car does not put down power until its nearly straight. However, it did not appear that the car was braking to prevent the power, so it did not appear that the brakes are being applied to prevent the power, it appears that there is an algorithm in place on Yaw/steering angle/etc. that prevents the electric motor output. At least it appears that way. If track mode is coming, I would expect this to improve.

I do note in the latest video with Sacha from MPP on the track, the stability control was disabled but at the beginning of the video he explained that the power is still very limited coming out of the corners. Not sure if that is due to traction control or some other algorithm, but it would not be the brakes being applied.

This appears to be evidence that the stability control is not what is killing the brakes on track. The car is not producing power electronically unless nearly straight. If track mode does not come out, hopefully someone like MPP can make something like the Party box like they made for the Model 3. But I believe, there is a video of the Unplugged applied by Randy Probst doing drifts around corners, so they obviously have solved the issue.

That being said, MPP was significantly faster around the track with Camber, larger tires, shock/springs despite stock brakes and being limited on exit power.

One other thing that MPP found out a few posts up is that the car has pretty large springs to return the pads back for efficiency. That has the effect of requiring more pedal before the pads hit the rotors which could contribute to a odd feeling pedal. I encourage everyone to watch ingineers video about the Bosch iboost system in Teslas (and other cars now) - very informative:

Yes the car has TC (which as you said does not use the brakes, it uses the motor controls at about 1000hZ) until the car is very straight - or at least until the steering wheel is straight. So it's very important to open up the wheel ASAP. That was true to a degree in the Model 3 P even in track mode, so it's a good habit to get into now I think. We do not believe the car is doing torque vectoring using the rear motors either yet, so that also contributes to the push on exits.

In the latest video Sasha has VSC defeated, so as you can see he can hustle the car into the corner and get it to slide a bit. On the way out though he's still very limited so there's more time to come in solving that and in getting the brakes up to par. With VSC on the stability control is quite aggressive, and adding heat to the system, so whether that's killing the pads or not, it's certainly not helping. The car as delivered right now is not setup for the track even though we all want to take it there. We'll get there I'm sure.

Sasha did find out that because the Plaid is largely a bit 3/Y now with upgrades, many of his techniques to play with the 3/Y work on the Palladium so I bet there will be some products to come! That said we are of course all waiting for Track Mode to see what that does. I'm hearing that it should be out to the general public very soon - but of course plans can always change.

 

[bhzmark]

first thing I will look at doing is better pads and fluid.

Great. Let us know what you find. I hope that just pads and fluid solve a good portion of the problem -- and hopefully there is a pad improvement option that also doesn't lose decent cold performance and doesn't make crazy noises.