Popular Mechanics
Interesting they thought the door pulls were aluminum, I could have sworn it felt like chromed plastic
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Popular Mechanics
Interesting they thought the door pulls were aluminum, I could have sworn it felt like chromed plastic
Interesting. Most of the customer test reviews here have seemed happy with the materials but maybe not lack of storage. Something easily fixed in the next few years.
If you wanted to use the static version of the model S star rating gif too, that'd be nice.
If you wanted to use the static version of the model S star rating gif too, that'd be nice.
This is a great thread. I've been following Tesla for nearly two years. I'm a Model S reservation holder (since Nov. 2010). I've been to at least 3 Tesla stores, and I've met a lot of diverse and interesting people, including dozens of other reservation holders. Almost every reservation holder admits that the Model S is the most expensive car they have ever purchased. I would also say that at least half of all reservation holders have never purchased a luxury branded car before ($50K+). That means that Model S customers are not only confined to the luxury market of 1.3M cars annually. Model S buyers are expanding the luxury market ($50K+). Very interesting.
IMO, the smartest thing that Tesla did with Model S (from a marketing standpoint), is offer a choice of 3 batteries. If Tesla didn't do this, the list of reservation holders would be dramatically smaller. They are attracting several different kinds of customers to the same car! Of course folks are coming in for different reasons. I enjoy learning about all the different kinds of people who are ultimately attracted to the Model S. I've met (pardon my labels) techies, greenies, performance nuts, oil haters, name droppers, etc., and I love them all. Being a little bit of all these, I seem to be in good company.
I believe that whether you are paying $60K or $100K, it's worth every penny. I tell you that the oil industry is watching very closely. When the major auto companies realize they have to get serious about EVs, the industry will change in a hurry.
IMO, the smartest thing that Tesla did with Model S (from a marketing standpoint), is offer a choice of 3 batteries. If Tesla didn't do this, the list of reservation holders would be dramatically smaller. They are attracting several different kinds of customers to the same car! Of course folks are coming in for different reasons. I enjoy learning about all the different kinds of people who are ultimately attracted to the Model S. I've met (pardon my labels) techies, greenies, performance nuts, oil haters, name droppers, etc., and I love them all. Being a little bit of all these, I seem to be in good company.
I believe that whether you are paying $60K or $100K, it's worth every penny. I tell you that the oil industry is watching very closely. When the major auto companies realize they have to get serious about EVs, the industry will change in a hurry.
Bardlebee
Member
You may be right about those options bringing in more people. I was originally going to get the 160 mile, but I have recently decided the 230 mile would be best for me. Obviously if money weren't an option I would get the performance. 
But, I am looking to save my money on other things in life. The 160 opens itself to a lot of people who can afford the car with some saving, especially with the reservation wait time its more of an incentive for people like me who like to save a lot for something before going in with no money down.
But, I am looking to save my money on other things in life. The 160 opens itself to a lot of people who can afford the car with some saving, especially with the reservation wait time its more of an incentive for people like me who like to save a lot for something before going in with no money down.
It absolutely doesn't matter what PM is saying. If the car is green enough other minor issues like price or quality are not important.
Out of curiosity which car do you feel offers more bang for the buck the Roadster or Model S? (obviously they are very different cars but within their respective category and purpose)
1. E63 AMG (Model S)
2. SL 550 (Roadster)
Only one advantage of Tesla is electrical powertrain. In any other aspect it's worse. Sorry to tell you but E63 handling is batter. And SL 550 is way much more pleasant car than Lotus. In my opinion, of course.
I have a few SL's (including the 65 variant), I am aware of what other cars bring to the table. You underestimate the people on this site, most of us have owned and still own performance cars, we are not oblivious to what other car manufacturers produce and how they handle etc.
My question was pointed to another Roadster owner, as I was curious to see his response with regards to cost vs value.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I've avoided this thread because it seemed like a troll thread initially, but given the length of it, I might as well add my two cents.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/files/documents/ostp/PCAST/PCAST Sep. 2008 Straubel slides.pdf
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/9275-Model-S-Nominated-for-North-American-Car-of-the-Year-(2013)/page4?p=165112&viewfull=1#post165112
http://business.fullerton.edu/finance/jgreco/fin570/Case7_Porche.pdf
http://www.iseg.utl.pt/aula/cad602/Analise_Porsche_200403.pdf
http://seekingalpha.com/article/229269-tesla-motors-this-hot-ipo-is-headed-for-trouble
The Model S is not "rediculously expensive". The closest gas car to it is the A7 and that starts at $60k, just like the Model S (before tax credit). The CLS starts at $70k and the AMG version is $95k. The Model S Performance starts at $92.5k (before tax credit). Plus if you compare it to other plug-ins, you get a lot more bang for your buck.
First of all, the battery cells alone cost $10k-$20k (~$250/kWh at cell level; ~$2.5 for a 18650 cell, ~10Wh per cell). Battery pack (which includes the cells, the module and pack level aluminum enclosures, all the interconnects, wiring, tubing for the coolant system, etc.) alone costs slightly less than the $20-40k Tesla is charging (Tesla is charging $400/kWh in the pack level). The single 300kW/402hp electric motor would cost about $20k to source. Despite what you think of "piece of art in engineering" in the 911, an ICE is relatively inexpensive in terms of $/hp (about $21k for a 550hp supercharged V8 sold to directly to a consumer).
http://www.whitehouse.gov/files/documents/ostp/PCAST/PCAST Sep. 2008 Straubel slides.pdf
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/9275-Model-S-Nominated-for-North-American-Car-of-the-Year-(2013)/page4?p=165112&viewfull=1#post165112
It's kind of ironic that you point out the 911, given Porsche makes the highest margins in the industry, 30+% gross margin for quite some time (40+% now according to the Tesla IPO article). Tesla's IPO Road Show mentioned a goal of 25% gross margins on the Model S. If you think Tesla is ripping people off, then Porsche is much worse!
http://business.fullerton.edu/finance/jgreco/fin570/Case7_Porche.pdf
http://www.iseg.utl.pt/aula/cad602/Analise_Porsche_200403.pdf
http://seekingalpha.com/article/229269-tesla-motors-this-hot-ipo-is-headed-for-trouble
Not sure. I still haven't driven the Model S (am going to Chicago for the event) but I'd probably say the Model S. Since it is a much more practical car, it will likely get more use from people who need more than 2 seats and a tiny trunk. For $75,000 well optioned out you can get a car with a similar range, sub 6 sec 0-60, lots of storage, much more practical and the ability to remotely cool your car which is big for hot climates. Also much easier to get in and out of and safer as well. I love the Roadster but it is an expensive sports car and all the things that come along with that. I'd never owned a sports car before so don't really have anything to compare it to. I have driven my Dad's M3 which has nice acceleration for half the price but I like the Roadster better of course. I know I just basically compared the two cars but think that given the Model S's expanded use and lower cost, it offers better bang for the buck.
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Oh I thought you had driven the Model S, after you drive it and have a chance the experience the interior, we can hear the "real" hands on comparison. IMO the Roadster is a better value because the materials are in line with a car in that price range (even with the expensive battery, motor etc)...Of course there are some quibbles like the center stack that flexes, and the plastic e-brake surround. From a quality standpoint the Roadster feels every bit as quality as say a Mercedes SL, or better IMO. I do not get that same feeling from the Model S, but after you spend some time in it we can hear your thoughts on the value proposition of the Model S in the marketplace.
I've sat in the Model S a few times but those were beta cars I guess. Was at the October event and have been to the Houston store after than. I'll see how I like things at the Chicago event but I've never owned a sedan nicer than a Volvo S80 before so might not be able to compare it to much. I think the leather quality in the Roadster is really nice but the rest of the car is very low tech (AC controls, crappy aftermarket Alpine unit, lack of adjustable steering column..etc). Still love the Roadster anyway which says a lot about the powertrain and driving experience for me at least.
If you want to compare the E63 AMG to the Performance Model S and talk money then you need to do some math.
An E63 AMG is $90000 and the Model S performance $85000 ( $92500 before credit ) similarly optioned.
The E63 AMG is essentially $30000 more because you are going to spend at least $25000 more on fuel over 100,000 miles. It offers $30000 more bang than the Model S performance? I am dubious.
It is also ridiculous to assert that the E63 handling is better without data.
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Well the major benefit is the ability to lease an E63 you cannot do this with a Model S, currently. We know the E63 will depreciate like a rock it is unknown what the Model S will do (hopefully not what Roadster prices have done). You can limit your cost basis, and 90% of E63 buyers will not be driving that car to 100k miles, chances are they will dump it once the warranty expires or trade it in.
So with the E63 you can determine your fixed costs, a little tougher with the Model S (especially if something better comes out, you are stuck).
Have roadster owners been able to recoup the cost of fuel they have saved vs diminished value of the roadster when selling? Chances are a 911 turbo will hold its resale better than a roadster, the cost of fuel will be far less significant than the diminished value of the vehicle.
For example a 2010 911 Turbo Cab sold new for 132k, blue book is 108k with 24k miles should have no problem dumping it for 90-100k?
2010 Roadster with a few options would approach that figure, would be lucky to get 80k for it and probably somewhere in the 70's. What is that a difference of 10-20k in "gasoline" costs over 2 years?
I think this should also be taken into consideration with regards to the Model S value proposition.
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I have a Roadster, I love my Roadster. It is a great car but lots of ICE sportscars beat it a few ways, some beat it lots of ways. I accept my early adopter penalty in order to drive electric.
However the Model S is very different. It has the cargo space of a much larger ( or uglier ) vehicle. It is very quiet at speed and under full power. It has insane acceleration. It has fantastic handling. It is incredibly cheap to fuel.
No other car on the road can put all of those things together at any price.
medved
Member
Except that the E63 costs $90,000.
It doesn't have 21" wheels.
It doesn't have carbon fiber rear 'spoiler' (it is $700 extra)
It doesn't have carbon fiber dash (it is $2,850 extra)
It has a 'F' efficiency class.
It would require $300 a month in fuel.
The Tesla 85kWh Performance is about the same $90,000 (added tech and sound to be comparable).
But it is pretty much silent.
It requires about $20-60 a month to operate.
Has near instant accelerator feedback.
The Tesla 40kWh is only about 63k delivered with a tech package.
I get $5000 back from Georgia.
I get 7,500 back from the Feds.
I get a faster than my current car.
I get HOV access.
I save $300 a month in fuel.
I will use about $30 a month in electricity.
I don't see how you think this car is so expensive.
