Model X Buy Back

[Krazaak]

If Tesla is offering a goodwill buyback, they can offer whatever terms they want to if you're willing to accept them. If the value seems fair given your use and it's an amicable buyback that doesn't leave you black listed, then it might be worth it.

In NC, the lemon law clearly states the buyback is purchase price minus fair use spelled out as 'Purchase Price - ((Number of miles driven by the consumer * Purchase Price) /120,000)'.

You should obviously compare your legal options against what's being offered via goodwill.

I don't personally think Tesla has a leg to stand on deducting the tax credit from your refund. It's a credit against your tax liability, not a manufacturer's rebate. If for whatever reason your tax burden didn't allow you to claim the credit are they going to ask for your tax return as proof?

While I'm definitely not a tax professional, I don't see anything that fails if sniff test on claiming the credit for yourself. You purchased the car and for reasons out of your control it's being purchased back without even having the official stigma of being a lemon. Unless they're making you a really sweet buyback deal it may be you who's providing the goodwill by letting them take your tax credit off the refund.

 

[vandacca]

Good luck arguing to the federal court that "it's out of the owner's control." He just had to submit that completed credit form for $7.5k, right?

Here's my arguments in reply to your position above, which I would like to think is what the fed's lawyers would say in reply to the Court:

Let's not be confused by scenarios when we are only dealing with the facts of this case which are: John Doe bought the EV car, had problems/didn't like it, barely drove it, if at all, returned it for a full refund, so car is not even in his driveway when the form is being completed. John Doe then completes and claims the federal EV credit form claiming $7.5k by his own free will -- it was completely within his control whether or not to claim that credit.​

Is that tax evasion? I don't know but I sure wouldn't want to test the waters and find out.

I agree that the above scenario may not pass the smell test. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't believe that the above scenario is realistic.

Firstly, Tesla will not give a full refund, they will buy back at a significantly reduced rate and one will likely need to negotiate something a better.

Secondly, this whole process will take a minimum of 40 days, probably a whole lot longer. From the posts I've read about buy-backs here, it takes many months to get the ball rolling, even after the vehicle has already spent months in service. Realistically, the whole process from purchase to buy-back is well over 6-months.

That's a whole lot of effort to get a tax credit, some of which is lost in depreciation. I just don't see this being a big problem. There are much easier/legal? ways to avoid taxes, read the Panama Papers!

 

[Krazaak]

I agree that the above scenario may not pass the smell test. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't believe that the above scenario is realistic.

Firstly, Tesla will not give a full refund, they will buy back at a significantly reduced rate and one will likely need to negotiate something a better.

Secondly, this whole process will take a minimum of 40 days, probably a whole lot longer. From the posts I've read about buy-backs here, it takes many months to get the ball rolling, even after the vehicle has already spent months in service. Realistically, the whole process from purchase to buy-back is well over 6-months.

That's a whole lot of effort to get a tax credit, some of which is lost in depreciation. I just don't see this being a big problem. There are much easier/legal? ways to avoid taxes, read the Panama Papers!

If I was in the market for a buyback, which I am fortunately not, and Tesla offered a full refund minus the credit, then I would leap upon that opportunity without looking twice. With the standard disclaimer, unless your tax filing habits are shady for some other reason I wouldn't give a second though to filing for the EV credit.

I had assumed we were talking about Tesla applying fair use depreciation and the EV credit to offset their loss while you walk away empty handed.

 

[mustinjurphy]

I’ve just recently escalated my situation with my Model X in an attempt to either get a replacement vehicle or a buyback. I’m not sure how it’s going to work out because I’m not the original owner of the vehicle. I’m fairly certain it wouldn’t qualify under any sort of Lemon Law so it would just be a goodwill buyback. Has anyone been in or know of anyone else who’s been in a similar situation before? I got a really good deal on a used 90D, first 1800 VIN. I actually prefer some of the older features like the active spoiler that’s no longer available and would prefer to have AP1 over AP2. If they do offer a buyback I would assume/hope It would be based off the original MSRP. I don’t think I’ll find a deal that great again, and Tesla has no used inventory Model X’s right now. Configuring my same specs on a new 100D is a difference of about 37k more than I paid for my 90D with 13k miles.

After not getting much of anywhere with my service center I recently was recommended trying to reach out directly to Jon McNeill, below is the message I sent to him, including the original email I sent to the regional service manager.

Model X (VIN#) - Recurring Warranty Issue Concerns

to jmc-at-tesla sent 1 day ago

Hi Jon,

After some posts on the Tesla Motors subreddit I was recommended to try and send you a message directly about the recurring issues I've been having with my Model X. My normal service adviser Jessica Reid out of Jacksonville gave me the contact info of Jamey Skurtovich, Regional Mobile Service Manager for Florida/Puerto Rico. I emailed Jamey on 1/3/18 originally explaining my concerns. He responded to me on 1/5/18 saying "Thank you for your message and I certainly apologize for the issues you are experiencing. Please allow me to review your concerns and I will be back in touch early next week with the next steps." I didn't hear anything from him so I wrote back to him on 1/10/18 looking for an update. I still haven't received any sort of response from him other than saying he received my first email. Below I'm going to copy the original email I sent to him. I'd greatly appreciate any help you can provide to help rectify the issues I've been having. I can be reached back via here on Reddit, my email - [email protected] or on my cell phone at xxx-xxx-xxxx. Thanks.

Original message:

Good Evening Jamey,

My name is (mustinjurphy) I got your contact info from my normal service adviser Jessica Reid out of Jacksonville. I live in Fort Myers and have gotten nearly all of my service work done by the local rangers since the closest service center is about 2 hours away. The reason for me reaching out to you is to start a discussion about the continual need for warranty work on my Model X and try to figure out a permanent solution to the problem.

Let me start by saying this, I absolutely love my Tesla vehicles and have no plans of driving anything else anytime soon. I'm a day 1 Model 3 reservation holder and should hopefully be invited to configure and order it any day now (My Tesla account showing Nov 2017-Jan 2018 delivery estimate). Realizing I just couldn't wait for the Model 3 to be my first Tesla I purchased my Model S at the end of Q3 2016 after finding a great deal on an inventory car. I bought my Model X in April 2017 after hitting my little girls heads too many times (currently ages 3 and 1 1/2) while putting them into their car seats, the falcon wing doors are a huge game changer. I'm an admin for my local EV Owners group and actually hosted an event for National Drive Electric Week back in September. I'm passionate about seeing and promoting a transition to a more sustainable future. I've also always been extremely happy with the level of service I've received on the many occasions I've needed it. Having said that, I've reached a point where I felt the need to escalate my concern with just how many times the same issues have needed to be fixed. With only ~25k miles on the vehicle I'm well within the warranty period. I feel not only like I'm waiting for the issues to keep happening once again but also have even greater concerns with owning the car long term after the warranty period is over. I'm sure you can see the full service history since it was built but I'll give a brief summary below that should be fairly accurate with the pertinent details.

As you'll see I'm not the original owner of this car, I believe there was only 2 actual "owners" but I think it may list 3 different owners. If it does I think the 2nd "owner" was just the dealership I purchased it from, but I could be wrong about that. I didn't know about the service history before I took ownership in April until just last week when I asked Jessica about it. She said she couldn't give me the full service reports because of the previous owners info being on them but did tell me about what services were performed.

May 2nd 2016 - Front door latches replaced

Oct 12th 2016 - Front right door latch replaced

March 9th 2017 - Front left door latch replaced

I take ownership in April 2017

June 13th 2017 - Front door latches replaced

August 9th 2017 - Front door latches replaced

October 23rd 2017 - Front left door latch replaced, AC issue adressed

October 29th 2017 - Same AC issue reappeared. Given ICE loaner for an extended period because I couldn't keep driving around without AC in the Florida heat.

November 14th 2017 - AC issue fixed

November 25th 2017 - AC issue fixed again

December 22nd 2017 - Front left door latch issue again, left side falcon wing door also not latched properly twice, AC issue again.

On the most recent visit the AC issue tested fine so nothing was replaced and the technician told me if it happened again to let you know. On 12/31 around 2pm I noticed the AC issue reappearing yet again. This is the first time I'm reporting this. I noticed it not blowing cold air and left the vehicle, set the climate to stay on "LO" and after 30 minutes or so the interior temperature was still reading in the 90's.

So at this point it just seems like this car is going to keep having issue after issue. I haven't explored any legal options yet because I'd hope and prefer to be able to work directly with you to rectify the situation. I'd like to find out about either A. Getting a replacement vehicle or B. Having Tesla buy back this vehicle so I can repurchase another one. If you can, please call me at your earliest convenience to further discuss this in more depth.

Thanks

——————

I also pasted basically this entire message into the “Escalafe my concern for executive review” customer support request box on My Tesla account (150 character limit so I had to send it in 8 parts).

I did finally receive an email back from the original regional service manager Jamey on Monday saying he forwarded my case onto the Business Resolution team and he wiill be my point of contact thru this process. I also received an email back today from Tesla corporate saying essentially the same thing.

Any feedback from anybody on my situation would be greatly appreciated.

Side note: My Model 3 estimated delivery is still showing Nov 2017-Jan 2018 but I haven’t been invited to configure and order yet

 

[TJtv]

You need to keep your communications short and quickly get to the point. No executive has time to read multiple paragraphs about how you love the company and are a model 3 reservation holder, etc. Ultimately it boils down to the fact that you’ve had a few door latch issues and some ac issues. It doesn’t sound like THAT horrible of an experience.

 

[mustinjurphy]

You need to keep your communications short and quickly get to the point. No executive has time to read multiple paragraphs about how you love the company and are a model 3 reservation holder, etc. Ultimately it boils down to the fact that you’ve had a few door latch issues and some ac issues. It doesn’t sound like THAT horrible of an experience.

Door latches replaced 7 times is only a few? Also, “some AC issues” when living in Florida and having small children and dogs to transport is a bigger deal than it sounds. I was given an ICE loaner for over 2 weeks while they were waiting on parts for the AC system.

 

[DarkMatter]

Is there any chance there's a different service center you can reasonably drive to? After that many repeats, my troubleshooting experience says that they are totally missing an issue. Or perhaps ask them to have a different tech look at your car with fresh eyes. Three repeats of the same fix is the threshold in some lemon laws for a reason: it forces the manufacturer to try to find the root cause. This seems like one where they have not tried that which is a disappointment.

 

[outie]

My car is currently in the SC the 6th times for the same issue - falcon door detecting false objects under heat/sunlight. They replaced my driver falcon and I have yet to see the issue, but I can't say it's resolved because the last fix they performed worked fine for 3 months or so. Now my passenger side is starting to have the same issue. They flew an engineer out from Fremont to check my car. There's no way I'd go to other SCs that's much further. Each visit has been a hassle to arrange for loaner, especially when I ask for a Model X (only got it half the time). I'd spend a good 20 minutes to transfer all my stuff to the loaner and back (2 kids with 2 car seats). Last time the valet told me no X for you upon my arrival. I said I'll reschedule and a X loaner magically became available. The valet said oh I was out on lunch when this car returned, which was sitting right next to him the whole time WTF? This time around they told me they don't have any X and won't for a while when scheduling the appointment. Maybe they sold them all during the last quarter push. Who knows.

If you have repeated issue just escalate it. If there's a field engineer coming I doubt it'd make any difference which SC you go to.

 

[17MXWHITE]

I am in talk with the manager at a SC regard my model X as well.
There are numerous issues with the vehicle. Some of the issues were not fix/correct after multiple service visit.
I have owned the car a little over 3 months now and had driven at least 6 Tesla loaners.
My last service was result in more than unhappy for me. Most of the addressed issues was not fixed. In addition, more issues arrise uppoint inspection of the vehicle and around the area where work has been done.
I had been quiet about my situation because I believed in Tesla service and that they can make thing right. However, my believe diminished each and everytime I go back to the service center to pick up my car.
Please keep me posted on your situation and how Tesla would handle your case.

 

[outie]

Any update @NewTMSMan? My service manager has offered to take my car back. He approached me with that option without me asking. How much do they deduct for mileage use? Is it the only deduction from the original purchase price (well obviously plus the fed tax credit amount)? Mine is a bit complicated as I also paid $4500+tax for the 75kWh battery upgrade.

 

[NewTMSMan]

Sorry, no real updates on the situation, except that Tesla is supposedly working on an offer to buy back our Model X.

Dragging this out is probably a good move by Tesla as the more my wife drives the X, and we do not have serious issues (although FWD on drivers side is misaligned now, which bugs me to no end), the more she is leaning toward keeping the car and accepting the Tesla experience (some gremlins and quirks) as she enjoys the rest so much.

Hate to say this, but already reserved a Model 3 for my daughter as well.

 

[number12]

$7500 is not a credit for EV new car buyers. It’s a credit for EV used car buyers.

 

[DarkMatter]

Any update @NewTMSMan? My service manager has offered to take my car back. He approached me with that option without me asking. How much do they deduct for mileage use? Is it the only deduction from the original purchase price (well obviously plus the fed tax credit amount)? Mine is a bit complicated as I also paid $4500+tax for the 75kWh battery upgrade.

Other brand buyback offers that I have seen treat them like miles on a lease, typically around $0.25 a mile, plus extra wear.

 

[NewTMSMan]

Other brand buyback offers that I have seen treat them like miles on a lease, typically around $0.25 a mile, plus extra wear.

I would check your state Lemon Law regarding mileage charge. In NJ they give an example of their typical practice as:

(Total Purchase Price x Mileage at First Repair Attempt) / 100,000 = Use Deduction

 

[DarkMatter]

That is a fair point, and I had forgotten about it. Which is embarrassing as I know the people who work on the State lemon law here.

 

[eSpiritIV]

On leases Tesla and all other manufacturers get the tax credit. You only get it if you buy the vehicle outright. If you return it tough luck, it's the law

 

[gearchruncher]

So has anyone here actually completed a buy back from Tesla where they didn't claw back the $7,500? I have a goodwill buyback offer from Tesla. which they took the $7,500 out of. I was OK with it, but now they are being less than helpful and I'm less interested in doing it as a goodwill than following Washington's value directly, which is:

The reasonable offset for use shall be computed by multiplying the number of miles that the vehicle traveled directly attributable to use by the consumer during the time between the original purchase, lease, or in-service date and the date beginning the first attempt to diagnose or repair a nonconformity which ultimately results in the repurchase or replacement of the vehicle multiplied times the purchase price, and dividing the product by one hundred twenty thousand.

Pretty clear that the law just takes purchase price and reduces it by 1/120,000 per mile driven, so it seems pretty straightforward that the $7,500 doesn't apply.

 

[DarkMatter]

Might as well do the math. It's a business transaction. You should be able to claim the $7500 on your taxes, so if that's all they are taking out you might be ahead depending on your total mileage.

 

[gearchruncher]

No, in my case they are offering the WA "lemon law" math on miles, so they are taking 7,000 miles of depreciation out, and then taking the $7,500 off on top of that.

I get that it's a business transaction / negotiation. I was asking what others had done.

 

[DarkMatter]

If you are claiming the $7500 it seems like you are coming out as you usually would with a non-EV. Are you unable to claim it? If so I would bring that to their attention.