Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[bonnie]

So, now we have this: I-TEAM EXCLUSIVE: Victim who died in Tesla crash had complained about auto-pilotFriends and family are mourning the death of Apple engineer Walter Huang after he crashed in his Tesla in Mountain View Friday.

This doesn't make sense to me:

"The family is telling me they provided an invoice to investigators, that the victim took the car in because it kept veering at the same barrier."​

If I was upset about AP behavior in a specific place to the point I was calling Tesla & complaining, I wouldn't use it there (or would be hyper-alert). I don't think anyone would.

Assuming the family understood the area he was talking about, I'd have to also assume that AP was not engaged because of previous problems.

 

[MP3Mike]

Another interesting thing about that video is that they say CHP confirmed that there was another accident in that spot 11 days prior. So it likely that Caltrans never got around to repairing the Smart Cushion for almost two weeks.

 

[Mrcook4590]

I'm sorry but I don't believe that. that situation is true, you have to consider a person contemplating suicide and them trying to leave a family in a not so bad situation.... HOWEVER! I don't believe it. This would be the dumbest theory of them all. If that story is true, and Mr. Huang had complained about the car doing that.... I'd say that it is not just implausible that AP killed him... it's impossible.



Interesting, did it insult you before it tried to kill you? What other motives did it have?

Um, I never mentioned that he was trying to commit suicide. Don't know where that came from. I'm just saying that *I* would not use it if it did something like that.

 

[e-FTW]

This doesn't make sense to me:

"The family is telling me they provided an invoice to investigators, that the victim took the car in because it kept veering at the same barrier."​

If I was upset about AP behavior in a specific place to the point I was calling Tesla & complaining, I wouldn't use it there (or would be hyper-alert).

Am with you. Maybe this could be the first part of eventually suing Tesla, Caltrans, etc? I don't know how these things go in the US.
No way to judge anything frankly. None of us were in the car.

I just know how this will play out in the media, and the morning shows especially. I expect even more FUD. That was what my comment about buying more cheap TSLA stock today was about.

I hope the family eventually gets closure, I really feel for them.

 

[Matutino]

Interesting, did it insult you before it tried to kill you? What other motives did it have? Edit: I'm trying to make a point... sorry that I sound like a d-bag while doing that.

All I can think of is that my X is jealous of my S

 

[AWDtsla]

What if the cameras didn't "see" the origination of the split? Either it was obstructed by another vehicle, glare, or some other reason.

It can't see barriers, period.

There's only a limited class of objects it can see, like the rear end of cars.

 

[Brando]

Sorry if this is a duplicate. Remember the 101 parked Fire Truck?
Mentions Volvo and Tesla and all similar system. Please read to understand details.

Why Tesla's Autopilot Can't See a Stopped Firetruck

“Traffic-Aware Cruise Control cannot detect all objects and may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead.”

 

[buttershrimp]

To be clear... I am not saying he suicided.... I am saying that story of him talking about that specific point and then colliding a few days later would indicate suicide before an autopilot situation. That's why I don't believe it. Here is what I think.... Walter was a tech guy.... he probably loved autopilot and he probably got the model X because it is the safest car for his family to get....

 

[dgatwood]

To be clear... I am not saying he suicided.... I am saying that story of him talking about that specific point and then colliding a few days later would indicate suicide before an autopilot situation. That's why I don't believe it. Here is what I think.... Walter was a tech guy.... he probably loved autopilot and he probably got the model X because it is the safest car for his family to get....

He probably complained about it getting too close to the barrier while it was beside him — a phenomenon that I've experienced many times, as, I suspect, has everyone who has ever driven a Tesla with autosteer through an area with barriers. There's a big difference between screwing up the lane keeping by a few inches and a few feet, though.

 

[mongo]

you realize how much the lack of a buffer on the barrier resulted in the fatality. I can't imagine there being a fire had the barrier been in place. This hit in the worst possible spot.

Just so everyone is in the same page, the driver was extracted while the level of fire was quite small.
Post 134
Agree damage was bad due to barrier not being reset.

 

[Tam]

...Maybe this could be the first part of eventually suing Tesla, Caltrans, etc?...

I don't have any objection for the family to submit Tesla Service Record or what they called "Receipt" to those who are responsible for investigating of the accident so we all can learn from it. It's a proof of service which might be relevant whether the family is going to sue or not.

That job of digging through Tesla Service Records for this particular car should come from the investigation in the first place so the family shouldn't have to do it.

 

[miimura]

Another interesting thing about that video is that they say CHP confirmed that there was another accident in that spot 11 days prior. So it likely that Caltrans never got around to repairing the Smart Cushion for almost two weeks.

Right. Then, after this fatality, they were out there the very next weekday to repair it.

 

[SMAlset]

I thought that ABC 7 News and Noyes did a nice piece on him as far as coverage went. I thought it actually was quite a lengthy piece. Nice photographs of him and his family and friend comments about him. Interesting to see the teams at the salvage yard retrieving the modules. BTW did you notice that they also had the Road Closed signage and road cones there with his car? Very glad for all of us that drive this stretch of highway to also see that the maintenace and resetting of this barrier and Caltrans is being looked into. That would have been a big miss if not. How ever it turns out with his X and the likely cause of the crash is one part of this but getting this area and hopefully others like it looked after and made safer is the other.

I don't know what to make of the complaints his family/friends relayed he had about AP. It makes no sense to me that if your car had a known problem (maybe sensor placement) with driving routinely by that section of road/barrier that you would continue to deploy it at that location. And even if you did continue to use it to keep testing it, how could you not be extra vigilient and take over. No way do I think the car became possesed and did it's own thing and locked him out of control. Hopefully enough data can be pieced together to make sense of this tragic loss of a young life.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Is there an engineer among us that hasn't complained about AP? I've had my own history of complaining about it, but only once or twice to Tesla directly.

I think it's safe to assume that he knew exactly what AP was, and it's limitations.

The only possibility I see is maybe he was having good luck with the latest update in that area, and then got complacent. I can see myself doing something like that if it was an area I passed every day. But, to me that would takes weeks if not months.

I think its way more likely that either he realized too late that he was in the wrong lane or that the actions of another car caused him to crash into the barrier.

 

[Az_Rael]

We're talking about the one where the car drove into the side of the semi trailer making the turn right? Assuming that's the case, I think we can all agree that's a completely different set of circumstances than what we're seeing here.

Jeff

Nope. The one where AP was following bad lane lines in a construction zone and ran the fellow into the barrier. Driver said he was on AP (using it incorrectly in a construction zone, obviously). But it has some parallels to this situation. It also doesn't look like the car braked until after the impact.

The above just became more interesting.
I have AP1, and the claims by the family have me puzzled, as "taking over" is extremely easy with AP1. So AP2 is that much different?

No, AP2 is not difficult to disengage. In fact lately I've been annoyed with it (or more accurately with myself) because when resting my hands on the wheel, it's disengaged. First world problems. But bottom line is no, it is does not require any force to disengage AP2.

Weird. Mine has scared the ever living crap out of me AND my husband when he was in the passenger seat. Guess I will add it to the list for the next SC visit. Since others have reported similar issues when disengaging AP, its probably not just my car that is bad. May be some level of variance just like the "hands on wheel" sensor where some people say it detects the lightest touch and others (like me) have to hold the wheel pretty firmly to avoid nags.

 

[buttershrimp]

Nope. The one where AP was following bad lane lines in a construction zone and ran the fellow into the barrier. Driver said he was on AP (using it incorrectly in a construction zone, obviously). But it has some parallels to this situation.

View attachment 290107





Weird. Mine has scared the ever living crap out of me AND my husband when he was in the passenger seat. Guess I will add it to the list for the next SC visit. Since others have reported similar issues when disengaging AP, its probably not just my car that is bad. May be some level of variance just like the "hands on wheel" sensor where some people say it detects the lightest touch and others (like me) have to hold the wheel pretty firmly to avoid nags.

Forgive me but I don't see the parallel at all in this scenario with AP1 car on a long ago firmware. Did you mean something else?

 

[Az_Rael]

Forgive me but I don't see the parallel at all in this scenario with AP1 car on a long ago firmware. Did you mean something else?

I was refuting Jeffro01's claim that there is no way AP could ever run into a barrier so we should throw it out completely as a possibility in this crash. Just an example of AP running someone into a barrier a year ago. And considering that AP2 seemed more unstable than AP1 up until 10.4 (at least in my experience with both), I don't think we could rule out AP2 doing this either.

 

[SMAlset]

In the above video of the black Tesla going into the barrier, the car obviously couldn't follow the road markings...or maybe it tried. The lane kind of ended while the white line faintly continued as originally layed down but the road crews to indicate a change in lane due to construction barriers added, placed several reflective dots shifted over from the line. Not something I would expect AP to understand as I can see even a human not clearly seeing the new lane path. Not seeing the barriers is an issue but this was also software from at least mid last year. Have to wonder if there was road work signs prior to this. The car in front of him shifted over with no problem so the Telsa didn't follow him. And the driver somehow should have been aware of the road issue. I'd consider this more the fault of the road crew and the driver if he knew he was entering a construction zone where he should have disengaged it anyway. BTW, how do we know for sure the driver was using AP and not just driving and mind in a fog? It's video from a car trailing the Tesla.

Part of the problem I have with using driver assist systems is when you don't have to have your hands on the steering wheel. It only takes split seconds for something to occur and you lose valuable reaction time if you have to still put your hands on the wheel to guide the car. Even when you are driving on a wide open highway with no cars around you and your hands aren't there on the wheel you could have an animal run across your path and lose control of the car before you get those hands in position. Same would hold true for a blow out. The steering wheel would be violently jerked and you'd want both hands on the steering wheel to try to maintain direction while you slowed down.

 

[gaswalla]

It seems like every AP involved accident (except the Florida one) - firetruck, China, barriers, Mountain View - involves AP in the left lane, or the fast lane. I'm going to stay away from the left lane when using AP

 

[Az_Rael]

BTW, how do we know for sure the driver was using AP and not just driving and mind in a fog? It's video from a car trailing the Tesla.

The driver was quoted in the Electrek article I linked earlier. Tesla Autopilot crash caught on dashcam shows how not to use the system

“I was driving in the left lane of a two lane highway. The car is AP1 (first generation Autopilot) and I’ve never had any problems until today. Autopilot was on and didn’t give me a warning. It misread the road and hit the barrier. After the airbags deployed there was a bunch of smoke and my car rolled to a grinding stop. Thankfully no one was hurt and I walked away with only bruises.”

I agree he was fully at fault for using AP in a construction zone and apparently not paying attention like he should have.

The question is IF AP had locked onto the wrong white lane line for some reason, would it have run the car into the barrier? I think the answer that might be yes even if it had a car ahead to follow instead. Now, I don't know how likely AP would have been to grab the wrong line in that area during that time of day. We have mixed reports from other drivers who drive that interchange daily.

But based on the family's report, he had previous problems at that interchange with AP. So he wouldn't/shouldn't have been zoned out allowing AP to follow the wrong lines. So I am still on a last minute wheel-disengagement that lead to over corrections and loss of control. If the police reported a loss of control, that is probably because the witnesses told them the car had lost control. That makes me think the car made some unexpected maneuvers right before impact. Otherwise they would have reported "the car drove straight into the barrier officer!"