Anyone know the name of the lobbyist? Would like to know if there has been any progress and/or what we can do to help.
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Anyone know the name of the lobbyist? Would like to know if there has been any progress and/or what we can do to help.
They've indirectly probably hired lot's of lobbyists along with SolarCity when they "contribute" to green energy non-profits which employ "scientists" to testify and lobby for green energy/tech.
Nubo
Test Mule
chickensevil
Active Member
Sadly we have to wade through the bureaucracy of getting rid of the mirrors. Which is why they had to stick them back on the car in the first place... Tesla is too innovative for the government...
Have you ever considered that the mirrors actually have a safety function that is hard to replace/replicate using electronics? I'm not saying impossible, but likely quite expensive. I would guess electronic mirrors would have to comply with IEC 61508 / ISO 26262. Glass mirrors are simple, cheap, effective and "Proven In Use". Camera+display are not. Also, the requirements are not unique for North America.
... but cool? Yes!
... but cool? Yes!
chickensevil
Active Member
Have you ever considered that the mirrors actually have a safety function that is hard to replace/replicate using electronics? I'm not saying impossible, but likely quite expensive. I would guess electronic mirrors would have to comply with IEC 61508 / ISO 26262. Glass mirrors are simple, cheap, effective and "Proven In Use". Camera+display are not. Also, the requirements are not unique for North America.
... but cool? Yes!
Based on what they were suggesting (which I never saw it, or drove it, so I am forced to believe what they said.) they were saying it is actually better than mirrors, since the display for the camera was on the dash, So you could look at both mirrors without having to turn your head. Then the only reason to look left/right would be to check your blind spot. If they were to add in the side sensors that people have now that tells you when someone is in your blind spot, then there would never really be a reason to turn your head away from the front while driving.
Just because something is cheaper does not make it better. I realize they are proven in use, and that they are a needed safety device, but I would contest that this was meant to replace that device and should be fairly judged for what it is. Otherwise you risk sticking your head in the sand thinking the world is perfect.
Tedkidd
Member
I also read an interview that suggested that mirrors are not cheaper. (Lot of assumptions in that post that might not be so well informed.)
fengshui
Member
You can see what they envision it looking like in this image from the Model X page, surrounding the speedometer:
Nubo
Test Mule
Have you ever considered that the mirrors actually have a safety function that is hard to replace/replicate using electronics? I'm not saying impossible, but likely quite expensive. I would guess electronic mirrors would have to comply with IEC 61508 / ISO 26262. Glass mirrors are simple, cheap, effective and "Proven In Use". Camera+display are not. Also, the requirements are not unique for North America.
... but cool? Yes!
Cameras have the potential to give superior safety with variable optics, and digital image processing to enhance the view in poor seeing conditions. Cameras can see a wider spectrum than the human eye. Just as backup cameras are now widely regarded as giving improved safety, and in fact are required equipment as of this year, iirc. It would be strange to have the DOT require backup cameras while simultaneously disallowing side-view cameras. Both in the name of safety?
Of course, cameras + display might be a better alternative, as long as it works... The same thing applies to Rearview Camera. It increases safety as long as it works... Glass mirrors can break, but cameras + displays + electronics + software can fail in som many ways.
Both power stearing and braking servo are systems that gives an overall increased safety, but they only apply extra force to the mechanical connection. This is simply because it is impractical (in normal cars) to use "drive by wire" on the brakes and steering system. Impractical would normally mean expencive.
Don't blame me... I only work with safety systems...
Exterior mirrors and the window glass you need to look through can become foggy or dirty making them useless whereas a camera could have a self cleaning lens. And if you want to discuss how the camera might fail I'd want to understand why you'd think it would fail.
Nubo
Test Mule
True, but I'd extend the power-steering analogy to side-view cameras. You don't lose the ability to change lanes safely if they fail. If they fail, you can still turn and look, and navigate with care for a reasonable fail-safe. You should already be looking in addition to mirrors anyway. I wouldn't expect a driver to discontinue a trip and call for a tow, for example, if a side-view mirror became inoperative. Not sure we need to hold camera-based systems to a higher standard. I think the larger concern would be that it not convey misleading visual information.
chickensevil
Active Member
But people have gotten used to the "misleading visual information" of the passenger mirror too. So I would say that you will get used to what you use. But otherwise good points
BriansTesla
Old school meets new tech
I would like to pass along some things I learned while testing a side view camera system on my Model S. I haven't attempted to remove the mirrors since I wanted a perfectly working solution before I took them off.
I managed to find a dual camera mirror that I thought would work best for my purposes. I first used the cameras that came with the system.
First I mounted the cameras on a small plate that slid under the rear taillights. This seemed to work well and still displayed well into the usual blind spot. Later I moved them under the side view mirrors which I had folded back.
Here are the things I learned.
1. For me, and anyone driving with bifocals, the screen does not work unless it is located below or just above the dash. I didn't expect this since of course using the side view mirrors I can see fine.
2. This is obvious but there is no depth vision with cameras so you have to rely on relative size and position on the screen to judge how far away something is.
3. The focal length of the cameras is very important. Those that came with the system were too wide angle and so the cars in the middle distance seemed to be further away than they really were. I ordered two more sets of cameras trying to get a longer focal length and finally found a set that has interchangeable lenses. I haven't tried these yet.
4. Driving at night was a bit problematic, the headlights of cars in the camera's field affected the view more than I would like.
I think generally speaking that this could work well. I got used to driving with the system and I think with the right cameras and monitor positioning, along with the best compromise in contrast, this would be better than mirrors. The main advantage being the lack of a blind spot and not needing to turn your head.
I managed to find a dual camera mirror that I thought would work best for my purposes. I first used the cameras that came with the system.
First I mounted the cameras on a small plate that slid under the rear taillights. This seemed to work well and still displayed well into the usual blind spot. Later I moved them under the side view mirrors which I had folded back.
Here are the things I learned.
1. For me, and anyone driving with bifocals, the screen does not work unless it is located below or just above the dash. I didn't expect this since of course using the side view mirrors I can see fine.
2. This is obvious but there is no depth vision with cameras so you have to rely on relative size and position on the screen to judge how far away something is.
3. The focal length of the cameras is very important. Those that came with the system were too wide angle and so the cars in the middle distance seemed to be further away than they really were. I ordered two more sets of cameras trying to get a longer focal length and finally found a set that has interchangeable lenses. I haven't tried these yet.
4. Driving at night was a bit problematic, the headlights of cars in the camera's field affected the view more than I would like.
I think generally speaking that this could work well. I got used to driving with the system and I think with the right cameras and monitor positioning, along with the best compromise in contrast, this would be better than mirrors. The main advantage being the lack of a blind spot and not needing to turn your head.
I just use the backup camera, and it works really well. If the car showing in the backup camera is more than just a dot, it's very close and you need to check before you move out of your lane. After almost a year's driving, I use the backup camera about 2/3 of the time and the rest of the mirrors about 1/3 of the time.
BriansTesla
Old school meets new tech
Great Idea!
I was trying to work in the direction Tesla has with the X - eliminating the side mirrors.
Article regarding Side Cameras in the Model X !! Looks like Tesla IS moving forward with this idea!! Can't wait to see it on a production car!
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-motors-leads-campaign-to-replace-side-mirrors-with-cameras/#!CDnIY
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-motors-leads-campaign-to-replace-side-mirrors-with-cameras/#!CDnIY
Article regarding Side Cameras in the Model X !! Looks like Tesla IS moving forward with this idea!! Can't wait to see it on a production car!
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/t...-to-replace-side-mirrors-with-cameras/#!CDnIY
I think the mandatory rear view cameras (by 2018?) in all cars, is telling that NHTSA thinks camears, and video is robust and proven technology. It makes it easier to argue for their replacement of other technology.
That being said, I tend to look at other people's mirrors to tell if they are paying attention quite often (especially when cycling). I am not sure I am really behind this change. I could be convinced, but right now I would say 'stick with mirrors, just get rid of that crappy "objects in mirror are closer than they appear" crap.'
fengshui
Member
Does anyone have experience with how long it would take to get an exception or other alternative through the NHTSA? Would they be able to get a ruling in time to have cameras on the X, or is this for a future vehicle? Perhaps they have been working behind the scenes to get this approved? If they already have informal agreement from the regulators, and this is the final public step for the X, I could see it, but otherwise, this feels too late for the initial production run of the X.Article regarding Side Cameras in the Model X !! Looks like Tesla IS moving forward with this idea!! Can't wait to see it on a production car!
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