My experience taking Tesla to court about FSD

[Whyone]

Interesting @qwickshot.

I completely get the 'many ways to skin a cat' rationale.

This is the logic Tesla are using with the (let's be kind and call it a) 'transition' from USS to Vision based Park Assist.

Cars were delivered without USS and without Park Assist functionality, so cats went un-skinned for a period of time. Tesla simply stated that this functionality will be restored 'soon' (so unlike early FSD, they were careful not to paint themselves into a corner with any date or duration specific promises) but with the proviso that this will be once the Vision based system achieves 'performance parity' with the old system.

As we know, it took a few months for some form of Park Assist to be restored to cars without USS.

On 16th August this year Tesla informed me in writing that Vision based PA has achieved 'performance parity'.

I have quizzed Tesla at length on the parameters they were using to make this assertion - they would not be drawn.

We have two Model 3's in the family - one with USS, one without.

I have run a range of back-to back tests in a range of lighting and climatic conditions and cannot for the life of me find a single way in which the Vision based system at least matches that using USS (speed of start-up; availability of system - Vision PA frequently 'degraded'; accuracy of measurement to obstacle to front and rear of car; consistency of measurement to obstacle to front and rear of car; consistency of detecting obstacles, particularly to front of car).

So my view is, yes Tesla have found an alternative way to 'skin the PA cat', but IMHO there is a huge gulf in performance between the old way and the new....but Tesla state otherwise and I am unsure how this can be sensibly challenged.

 

[spon88]

Interesting @qwickshot.

I completely get the 'many ways to skin a cat' rationale.

This is the logic Tesla are using with the (let's be kind and call it a) 'transition' from USS to Vision based Park Assist.

Cars were delivered without USS and without Park Assist functionality, so cats went un-skinned for a period of time. Tesla simply stated that this functionality will be restored 'soon' (so unlike early FSD, they were careful not to paint themselves into a corner with any date or duration specific promises) but with the proviso that this will be once the Vision based system achieves 'performance parity' with the old system.

As we know, it took a few months for some form of Park Assist to be restored to cars without USS.

On 16th August this year Tesla informed me in writing that Vision based PA has achieved 'performance parity'.

I have quizzed Tesla at length on the parameters they were using to make this assertion - they would not be drawn.

We have two Model 3's in the family - one with USS, one without.

I have run a range of back-to back tests in a range of lighting and climatic conditions and cannot for the life of me find a single way in which the Vision based system at least matches that using USS (speed of start-up; availability of system - Vision PA frequently 'degraded'; accuracy of measurement to obstacle to front and rear of car; consistency of measurement to obstacle to front and rear of car; consistency of detecting obstacles, particularly to front of car).

So my view is, yes Tesla have found an alternative way to 'skin the PA cat', but IMHO there is a huge gulf in performance between the old way and the new....but Tesla state otherwise and I am unsure how this can be sensibly challenged.

I purchased a new MYP in January with the knowledge that USS had been removed. I discussed this with them in the showroom and they assured me performance parity would come - I was skeptical however as I'd seen early results. I was careful to document the discussions and also emailed a few times and received replies. The replies from Tesla referred me to their press announcement and vision "meeting or exceeding" the performance of USS. It very clearly hasn't.

I emailed them again a few weeks ago to ask when we could expect performance parity and noting that the system basically doesn't work at all after heavy rain, with road film or where there is low sunshine; unlike USS which does work under those conditions. They replied very generally (likely deliberately) and mentioned future updates improving functionality - this is contrary to what they told you.

I suspect there are sufficient videos about the continued poor performance of the vision system to challenge Tesla if someone was so inclined. Currently I can just about cope with the (cr@p) vision system and ask the wife to hop out and guide if I'm in a very tight spot. If I'm on my own, it all becomes a bit more of a gradual procedure to make sure I don't hit anything. However, my main concern is that the vision system has devalued the car relative to one with USS, although the cr@p performance can be more than inconvenient at times.

If there was some sort of collective action I'd likely jump on it. However, I don't think it's something I would do on my own as whilst irritating, it's not an all-consuming issue for me. Tesla does deserve a poke in the eye over it for sure though. They know it's cr@p but will obfuscate as much as they can to avoid the issue. For now I'll keep my powder dry and the emails and screen grabs of their publications and promises safe.

 

[Pagemakers]

Even in my 3P they’ve turned radar off and the car uses vision only for autopilot. It’s a hundred steps back from where it was initially. It’s virtually unusable it’s that bad.

 

[Whyone]

....

I emailed them again a few weeks ago to ask when we could expect performance parity and noting that the system basically doesn't work at all after heavy rain, with road film or where there is low sunshine; unlike USS which does work under those conditions. They replied very generally (likely deliberately) and mentioned future updates improving functionality - this is contrary to what they told you.

....

In August this year I emailed Tesla Customer Resolutions UK a number of questions, including this one:

'1/ Based on your message of March 2023 regarding Park Assist, you stated "...once these features achieve performance parity to today’s vehicles, they will be restored via a series of over-the-air software updates...." - is it therefore reasonable for me to assume that you believe 'performance parity' has now been achieved?'

Tesla response (17th August):

"As we’ve said, our website was clear that Tesla Vision features will be reenabled as they achieve performance parity with the ultrasonics-based features. So the answer to your question numbered 1 on Park Assist is ‘yes'"

And they signed off with this gracious customer focussed message!

"At this stage, we feel that we have provided you with sufficient commentary on Tesla Vision and the removal Ultra Sonic Sensors. Unless you have any questions that we have not already answered in our previous emails. If we feel that your questions have already been answered, we will not respond to your queries. Please take this as our final response on your concerns around Tesla Vision."

 

[St Taw]

I'm not planning to publish the Tesla docs, because I don't want to give any reason things could be taken down. If you send me your email address I'm happy to send a redacted one though.

I can understand why edb49 wants to call it a day responding to questions etc. However I would like to obtain the various documents that were offered. If anyone can explain how I can email Ed of if anyone else has collected these documents and can help supply them to me I would appreciate it.

 

[spon88]

In August this year I emailed Tesla Customer Resolutions UK a number of questions, including this one:

'1/ Based on your message of March 2023 regarding Park Assist, you stated "...once these features achieve performance parity to today’s vehicles, they will be restored via a series of over-the-air software updates...." - is it therefore reasonable for me to assume that you believe 'performance parity' has now been achieved?'

Tesla response (17th August):

"As we’ve said, our website was clear that Tesla Vision features will be reenabled as they achieve performance parity with the ultrasonics-based features. So the answer to your question numbered 1 on Park Assist is ‘yes'"

And they signed off with this gracious customer focussed message!

"At this stage, we feel that we have provided you with sufficient commentary on Tesla Vision and the removal Ultra Sonic Sensors. Unless you have any questions that we have not already answered in our previous emails. If we feel that your questions have already been answered, we will not respond to your queries. Please take this as our final response on your concerns around Tesla Vision."

FFS, they really don't get customer service do they. They might as well have said, "we know you're right, we don't like it but F off anyway". Dismal really.

 

[Whyone]

FFS, they really don't get customer service do they. They might as well have said, "we know you're right, we don't like it but F off anyway". Dismal really.

Very much my interpretation!!!

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Tesla wanted an NDA and also to prohibit the OP from even offering advice to anyone bringing or considering bringing legal action of their own. That’s huge.

In a way it does betray how badly they thought their defence was, in spite of whatever they were saying in legal correspondence.

This is standard procedure for any/all attorneys to ask for in cases like this.
They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't ask for these. Doesn't mean they'll get them, but they're going to ask every single time.
8 grand is a drop in the bucket. And yes, the Tesla defense team knew right away they were in the wrong.
At that point, it's all about damage control. Can they get you to settle for as little as possible. So they started with the FSD cost, and included the NDA+. How many of these cases have they settled with that initial offer that we don't know about? Quite a few, I'd say. Because some people are just happy to get their money back.

It takes someone like the OP, who doesn't need the money, and is willing to go above and beyond, to get the actual fair settlement in this case. But if Tesla has 100 of these suits, and the OP is the only one who followed through, then Tesla has saved a LOT of money on the other 99%. That's just the cost of doing business, and they're prepared for it.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Indeed.

It’s also in Tesla’s interests not to have a judgement go against them on this matter. Although small claims courts don’t set precedents, they could inform future verdicts along similar lines. Tesla would probably want to avoid that, and would rather deal with each case individually.

That being said nothing is certain in small claims. I’m not sure I’d bet a ~£8k settlement on a judgement in my favour, and I also don’t know how enamoured a judge would be with a plaintiff who had forced the case into court having been offered what they asked for.

US small claims are limited to <$2500, so this wouldn't even be in a small claims setting.
That probably would not change the outcome of this one. The OP's case was open/closed. And Tesla would be even more likely to settle.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Some are of the view that Tesla often discusses their hopes, dreams and aspirations about the development of their cars and self driving.

This is a new technology for the World, and they often fall short of their aspirations. They predict what and when they might be able to pull it off, but not unexpectantly, they often fall short.

People that take the predictions from Santa, the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy and Elon are often disappointed.

Tesla is inventing the future as they go about their business.

You're not wrong.
However, it is on Tesla for making claims that become contracts when you buy. That was their mistake in this case.
We all agree progress/innovation has growing pains. Just don't contractually promise things, and you're fine.
They did, then didn't deliver. Therefore, legally, they are responsible, in this case.

 

[Jason71]

Even in my 3P they’ve turned radar off and the car uses vision only for autopilot. It’s a hundred steps back from where it was initially. It’s virtually unusable it’s that bad.

Experiences seem to vary a lot.
I went from an M3LR 2019 to an MY right around the time that radar was switched off and thus far the MY has been at least as good on Autopilot as the M3. I feel as if I have experienced less phantom braking with the MY and have had no negatives at all.
I don't do a huge amount of motorway driving but I had the M3 for 3 years 25K miles and the MY for over a year now 12K miles so I have had quite a while to compare. I never ran the two cars on the same software version which may be a factor but I really don't recognise the complaints of a serious downgrade people are reporting. Not doubting anyone's word just reporting my own experiences.

 

[yessuz]

Nope, it’s not the same.

You didn’t buy a vehicle with radar. You bought a vehicle with traffic aware cruise control with/without auto steer. There is a clear distinction between the two.

How they actually achieve the functionality is almost irrelevant.

This is not be defending tesla, this is me looking at how contract law actually works. All I can say is, good luck if you want to go down that route but I’d honestly not recommend wasting the mental energy.

As I said in my post for FSD, there is a clear case for a refund and people should get a refund.

I think you are missing the point.

I actually bought car with Radar. as it is part of the advertised functionality.
then Tesla disabled radar in favour of TeslaVision. they never asked me if I want that

 

[yessuz]

Experiences seem to vary a lot.
I went from an M3LR 2019 to an MY right around the time that radar was switched off and thus far the MY has been at least as good on Autopilot as the M3. I feel as if I have experienced less phantom braking with the MY and have had no negatives at all.
I don't do a huge amount of motorway driving but I had the M3 for 3 years 25K miles and the MY for over a year now 12K miles so I have had quite a while to compare. I never ran the two cars on the same software version which may be a factor but I really don't recognise the complaints of a serious downgrade people are reporting. Not doubting anyone's word just reporting my own experiences.

the main difference with vision based system vs radar which I noticed are:
1) car is much more aggressive on brakes and acceleration in traffic start/stop situation. car brakes later, more aggressively, as well as accelerates later and more rapid
2) Max speed on autopilot reduced from 90 mph to 85 mph.
3) minimum follow distance now is "2" rather that 1. not that I would use it with item 2) from this list, but it would be useful in start/stop situation to leave a smaller gap, as "2" is the invitation for others to jump into the gap.
4) The "autopilot speed reduced due to poor visibility" message is very common now (never before when with radar.

 

[Whyone]

Is it intended (let's leave the actuality aside for now!!!!) that the functionality of TeslaVision is the same as radar?

Edit: our posts overlapped @yessuz ....it looks like there is a lot of overlapping functionality so is it not Tesla's intention to 'skin this cat' in another way (but like Park Assist, cocking it up mightily?)

 

[Dracaris]

FFS, they really don't get customer service do they. They might as well have said, "we know you're right, we don't like it but F off anyway". Dismal really.

No, they really don't, and if you ask about this again, any response would be in the form of a poop emoji and nothing else.

 

[yessuz]

Is it intended (let's leave the actuality aside for now!!!!) that the functionality of TeslaVision is the same as radar?

Edit: our posts overlapped @yessuz ....it looks like there is a lot of overlapping functionality so is it not Tesla's intention to 'skin this cat' in another way (but like Park Assist, cocking it up mightily?)

it is not overlapping - it is reduced functionality.

For example: you did a test drive with features. you ordered vehicle based on the test drive capabilities and information on the website during the order. Car arrived without USS. You were misled twice.

same applied for the radar. Maybe my only reason (I am not saying it is, BTW) that I spend a lot time in traffic and I really wanted start-stop to be with minimum distance from the car in front. It was like I wanted.. car arrived - I had what I wanted. Half a year later - tesla ****ed it up.

 

[Dracaris]

Gee, that's the other half of OTA updates to the car. Just like with Amazon, where you buy a Kindle book and they decide something's awry with the book they can snatch it back off your devices as if you never had it. Here, Tesla does the same. At least Amazon gives you a refund if they snatch the book away.

 

[Whyone]

it is not overlapping - it is reduced functionality.

......

I'm on your side ..honest! Just trying to understand these features (which I don't have).

Again, I may be wrong, and I'm sure you'll tell me if I am....but it still seems to me that this - like the USS/Vision Park Assist fiasco, Tesla have attempted (and I take your word for it that they have failed) to replace functionality derived through Radar with the same (or as I am sure Tesla would have it....improved!) functionally using a different data source?

 

[Drew57]

Experiences seem to vary a lot.
I went from an M3LR 2019 to an MY right around the time that radar was switched off and thus far the MY has been at least as good on Autopilot as the M3. I feel as if I have experienced less phantom braking with the MY and have had no negatives at all.
I don't do a huge amount of motorway driving but I had the M3 for 3 years 25K miles and the MY for over a year now 12K miles so I have had quite a while to compare. I never ran the two cars on the same software version which may be a factor but I really don't recognise the complaints of a serious downgrade people are reporting. Not doubting anyone's word just reporting my own experiences.

I already posted elsewhere saying pretty much the same.

Whereas I believe your car does have USS, mine doesn't but in all other respects our Model Y LRs should be similar & I haven't had a single severe phantom braking incident on AP during the first 10k miles. Just a handful of gentle slow downs, one at a specific point on the M6 and also one near Cambridge on the A14, both of which were the same with the previous M3 LR but more severe in the early days. I doesn't react when overtaking or being passed by cars or lorries and only responds when there is an obvious hazard.

Auto wipers have generally been OK on AP with just a very occasional need to turn AP off to stop dry wiping. The last time this happened was several months ago.

(...wipers not working with spray or light mist are another thing entirely on my car & irrespective of whether AP is engaged or not)

 

[Pagemakers]

I’m the opposite. I drive Manchester to Birmingham 2-3 times a week and I have about 7 phantom braking / hesitations on every single trip. Day, night, sun or rain. Tonight I even had stopping for traffic lights in the fast lane of the M6 with no overhead gantries in site. Even had slowing down for bad weather in light rain - never seen that one before. For me it’s utter sh1t.

I noticed a recent downgrade when they announced the improved vision from the cameras. From that day it fell off a cliff.