Why did you reply to me on this? We were talking about charging methods, not about limited max range.
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My model 3 says full at 210 miles
- Thread starter FlashEV0625
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wow, thanks for letting me know so I don’t waste my time. What response did they give you if any? What mileage does your regen breaking start being limited?
I’m curious to know if anyone with standard range plus had the same experience, such as going to the service center and not having the issue resolved? Or did everyone lose range as well on the performance and long range package?
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Most people have lost significant range. The longer this continues the more likely it is to be that the batteries simply are losing significant capacity.
Based on CAN bus readbacks, people are losing significant amounts of available energy (more than 5%). That is the reason for the loss of miles - there simply is not the same energy available for use as there used to be. Temperature is also an issue - so you should only pay attention to your extrapolated 100% range when you have a nice warm and close to full battery.
In any case, just not as good as those Model S/X battery cells, I guess!
Nothing to be done about it until it reaches 30% loss. It is just the way it is; with electric cars you expect significant degradation. I have seen 10-15% loss on my Chevy Spark EV in 3 years. Only 3% on the Performance Model 3 after a year. The Model S and X were outliers in how good they were, I suppose.
Tesla is perhaps enjoying a little reversion to the mean with Model 3.
We’ll see. Time will tell. In the meantime just enjoy the car - for most people this is only an issue for road trips. The good news is that likely the degradation is front-loaded.
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Most people have lost significant range. The longer this continues the more likely it is to be that the batteries simply are losing significant capacity.
Based on CAN bus readbacks, people are losing significant amounts of available energy (more than 5%). That is the reason for the loss of miles - there simply is not the same energy available for use as there used to be. Temperature is also an issue - so you should only pay attention to your extrapolated 100% range when you have a nice warm and close to full battery.
In any case, just not as good as those Model S/X battery cells, I guess!
Nothing to be done about it until it reaches 30% loss. It is just the way it is; with electric cars you expect significant degradation. I have seen 10-15% loss on my Chevy Spark EV in 3 years. Only 3% on the Performance Model 3 after a year. The Model S and X were outliers in how good they were, I suppose.
Tesla is perhaps enjoying a little reversion to the mean with Model 3.
We’ll see. Time will tell. In the meantime just enjoy the car - for most people this is only an issue for road trips. The good news is that likely the degradation is front-loaded.
I think there are 2 separate issues going on in this thread. I think everyone lost range but I think some people got software locked to the wrong package. I had this car since 8/1/2019. I noticed the issue maybe 2ish-3 months in. I should of checked my full range when I first got the car but never did. I shouldn’t have lost roughly 8% range in less than 3 months. My main give away that I believe I got software locked was when I fully charged the car and it stopped at 220miles exactly. The funny thing was I was tracking the charging speed while it was around 217 miles or so. It said I had roughly 45 minutes left in charging. At the time my charger charges at 16 miles per hour. So i should of finished off at around 230 maybe a tad bit less. When i checked again in a few minutes (was worried about over charging) it finished off at 220 miles. I think my car had room to go about 230 but got software locked at 220 miles. I have a standard range plus. I am currently 4 months in on my car.
With that being said, I just did an update today. My car is showing 224 miles max range on the app. Haven’t fully charged it to find out if that’s accurate. So now i don't know exactly what this means. I don't drive the car aggressive.
This is what they said. BTW this happened to me when they downgraded my car from SR+ to SR (from 238 miles to 203)
super20g
Member
How are you supposed to achieve 220mi of the standard range if you cant even start with 220? I know that is only in ideal conditions, but my car has never been close to displaying 220mi when fully charged at any ambient temperature, whether it is deep cycled or anything.
Think of that range display the same as if an ICE car took the gallons of fuel in the tank and multiplied by the window-sticker MPG. You would never expect an ICE car to go exactly gallons*MPG. You would expect it to go more or less depending on if you drive like grandma going to church on sunday vs zig-zagging in traffic going 80.
If you bought an ICE car that had a 12 gallon tank and EPA rated 30 MPG, you would never "complain" to the dealer if a full tank didn't drive you exactly 360mi.
EDIT: and the reason it isn't always EXACTLY the same number in the Tesla's display is because with a battery, it's really hard to know EXACTLY how much energy (gallons) are in it.
You are talking about projected range which is in the energy tab. The range displayed is not adapted based on driving pattern or other factors that impact range.
@smashcz you must have mis-read... I am definitely not talk ing about the energy tab, I am talking about the rated range display, which, as you stated is not adapted (which I have also stated many many times). And Not even sure what the portion you quoted of my message has to do with any of this.
The range display on the MAIN screen is (Wh remaining in pack)/(EPA rated Wh/mi). In an ICE car, the equivalent would be (gallons of fuel in tank) * (EPA rated MPG).
My point is: No one complains / thinks something is wrong /etc. if their ICE doesn't go (gallons of fuel in tank) * (EPA rated MPG), so I'm not sure why people get crazy in the case of Tesla.
davewill
Active Member
Because they told us that SR would get 220 miles, but the only readout is telling everyone 200...which makes us think they lied to us and have locked off more of the battery than 240mi vs 220mi would account for. Since there's no easy way to double check, we get frustrated.
short story......before 40.1.1, I have only charged to 100% one time and my car showed 305 miles......most all the time I charge to 90% and was always getting 279 miles.....then I want to 36.x.x and got 283 miles........along comes 40.1.1 and all my charges have been to 90% and 276-277miles......
well last night I charged from 54% to 90% and this morning I have 282 miles and it shows 92%.....I guess this is in keeping with what everyone else is seeing with the “overcharge” issue.....I guess its normal, huh
well last night I charged from 54% to 90% and this morning I have 282 miles and it shows 92%.....I guess this is in keeping with what everyone else is seeing with the “overcharge” issue.....I guess its normal, huh
Right, but in the ICE cars Ive owned I do not get the EPA Rated MPG. Again, I (or anyone, really) don't freak out.
I think if Tesla changed nothing other than abolish miles from the display, and display it always as percent, no one would freak. Everyone would think of it as they do ICE cars now. "Wow - I drove it hard - look how fast the gauge dropped!"
ICE cars don't display "gallons" or "range" either. They effectively display percent in an analog gauge. Some have the equivalent of the "energy graph" where it will estimate how many miles you can go based on recent driving. Again, NO ONE freaks out when that number is less than the EPA rating. You'd get laughed out the shop trying to complain you don't get the "rated" mileage.
davewill
Active Member
Your comments do not address anybody's concerns and are totally useless. There is no parallel between this situation and ICE cars. The facts are that the battery capacity is a MAJOR feature of these cars, and we are only given this one readout that indicates battery capacity. It acts erratically, and unfortunately, we can't trust Tesla to be forthright about it. People with ICE cars don't sweat fuel economy and range because they don't care very much about about it (although if a car like the Prius were to get noticeably lower mileage than the EPA testing when driven properly, or discovered to have a tank 1 gallon smaller than advertised, it WOULD come out sooner or later). Besides, it's not too hard to verify that a 9.8 gal fuel tank actually is that big. We have no good way to verify battery capacity, especially for situations like the SR where the capacity is being adjusted by software after the car is delivered.
They advertised the SR+ as 240 miles and the SR as 220 miles, which is about an 8% difference. People are seeing their cars show 238 right before update and 200 right after which is more like 16%. Are we supposed to close our eyes and pretend we didn't see it? Just believe Tesla that everything is fine without any explanation? It reminds me of Nissan ignoring the way their early LEAF batteries were degrading in warm climates. They were sued and ended up replacing a lot of batteries for free.
You may be correct that there is nothing to see here, but just saying it, as you are, is not enough.
... and which do you believe is more likely: 16% of the battery cells died overnight or the range display is not accurate.
Macintosh computers used to have a time left display in the menubar for laptops. They took it out a few OSes ago for this very reason - that number tells you very little at all about the capacity and/or health of the battery. So worrying because a laptop that was advertised at "8h battery life" displayed "7:30 remaining" at full charge was useless.
And sure there is a way to know how much kWh the car thinks is in the battery. Open the energy graph and display one of the consumption graphs where it gives you the estimated range remaining on the right, and the avg Wh/mi on the left and use this formula:
Code:
(estimated_range*avg_Wh_per_mi)/(frac_batt_remaining*1000)frac_batt_ramining is the percentage as a decimal - that is 87% would be entered as 0.87. This will result in the kWh the car thinks is "100% charge"
For my MidRange, I get 58±0.25 kWh every time I do this regardless of everything else. So in other words, when my car has 100% in the display, it thinks there is 58 kWh in the battery. Now we know there's a buffer on top of this. I have not used ScanMyTesla to read the CANbus (yet, it's on order). But I believe the buffer is something like 3.5 kW... so that would put my pack at 61.5 kWh which is about the 62kWh a mid range was reported to have (of course Tesla doesn't publish these numbers, so it's hard to know).
davewill
Active Member
That Tesla is locking out more of the battery than they claimed.
This reply alone tells me you don't even understand what you're complaining about.
davewill
Active Member
The rated range display is more useful than that. It's based on a fixed wh/mi figure.
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I guess I need to be more explicit... I gave you a simple formula to calculate exactly how much battery capacity, in kWh, your car thinks is 100%. You were supposed to do that, then report back and we would KNOW how much battery Tesla is locking out
Edit: If you need help with the math, change your display to percentage, and then post a screenshot of the entire screen with the energy display shown
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An update of my sr+ M3; 6 months old , 4500 miles driven, total avg wh/mile 208.
As stated before, I dropped 10 miles to 230 max charge about 10 weeks ago. I was a bit alarmed because I have such low miles on the car and tend to baby it. That is how I have an average of wh/mile of 208. 6 weeks ago, the 10 mile dropped moved to an 8 mile drop with no deviation. For the past 2 weeks it has moved from an 8 to a 6-6.5 drop in miles.
i am a little relieved (but still wary) that I gained some of my miles back. The only change is that I started to charge only up to 190 miles max rather than 210. And, there were 2 software updates since 6 weeks. Perhaps the loss was more to do with software than a battery issue?
As stated before, I dropped 10 miles to 230 max charge about 10 weeks ago. I was a bit alarmed because I have such low miles on the car and tend to baby it. That is how I have an average of wh/mile of 208. 6 weeks ago, the 10 mile dropped moved to an 8 mile drop with no deviation. For the past 2 weeks it has moved from an 8 to a 6-6.5 drop in miles.
i am a little relieved (but still wary) that I gained some of my miles back. The only change is that I started to charge only up to 190 miles max rather than 210. And, there were 2 software updates since 6 weeks. Perhaps the loss was more to do with software than a battery issue?
davewill
Active Member
My math is at least as good as yours, but thanks for the condescension.
Your formula is no different than comparing the rated miles. Anyway, I can't do your useless calculation as my car hasn't been downgraded, yet.
Besides you told us all were just a bunch of crybabies, NOW you want to help? No thanks.
I’ve seen a lot of threads where folks need the help, was honestly offering. Based on your previous post, I thought it could be needed because...
No it’s not, because it uses your current average Wh/mi and then what car estimates it can still drive at that average. “Rated miles” is not involved in any way, so I’m not sure why you think that. Doing it pre downgrade is exactly why you should do it now... you’ll see what the capacity is before and after the downgrade. Then you’ll know exactly what they took away.
No, I said that freaking out over that range display is worrying about the wrong thing.
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