My new solar and Powerwall installation

[Joelc]

Have been looking around for Powerwall 2.0 quotes and just got one back today.

Gross System Cost: $12,709.00
Estimated Rebates**: $4,935.00
Estimated Federal Tax Credit**: $3,812.70
Net Price After Estimated Incentives**: $3,961.30

Installation + 10yr warranty included.

The rebate amount is apparently the minimum I will receive but it may increase (I don't remember how or why, but maybe due to the timing of my purchase...earlier the better or something like that).

I believe the tax credit is the Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIP).

The Powerwall would tie in with my existing 6.3kW (SolarCity) solar installation.

I am still reading through various threads here re: the powerwall benefits, cost, net metering, etc. (great info)

But otherwise, thoughts?

 

[nwdiver]

But otherwise, thoughts?

How often do you lose power? Is this for power shifting or backup?

 

[Merrill]

I also have a 6.6kW solar system which does not take care of all my electricity, and to me with net metering the power wall would only work for back up. If I'm thinking correctly if I store my peak production in a powerwall I will lose the credit earned when the meter runs backward. For my system this credit at peak prices is what makes my system work. If my power company takes net metering away then it might makes sense.

 

[Joelc]

How often do you lose power? Is this for power shifting or backup?

Rarely lose power (knock-on-wood). Most likely for power shifting, but as @Merrill mentioned, i'm still evaluating if powerwall makes sense with net metering (consume low, produce when high?)

 

[FlatSix911]

I installed mine with my son. Solar is a very lego type installation. There are no shingles to remove or anything. My system cost approx. $8K in total. 54 panels. You can keep track of my progress by clicking the link below.

You have a Great dashboard with Solaredge ... SolarEdge House#/dashboard
I really wish SunRun would update their dashboard

 

[electracity]

Have been looking around for Powerwall 2.0 quotes and just got one back today.

Gross System Cost: $12,709.00
Estimated Rebates**: $4,935.00
Estimated Federal Tax Credit**: $3,812.70
Net Price After Estimated Incentives**: $3,961.30

Installation + 10yr warranty included.

The rebate amount is apparently the minimum I will receive but it may increase (I don't remember how or why, but maybe due to the timing of my purchase...earlier the better or something like that).

I believe the tax credit is the Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIP).

The Powerwall would tie in with my existing 6.3kW (SolarCity) solar installation.

I am still reading through various threads here re: the powerwall benefits, cost, net metering, etc. (great info)

But otherwise, thoughts?

So the cost of the powerwall installed is $900/kwh. With taxpayers/ratepayers picking up about 70% of the cost.

 

[ecarfan]

Gross System Cost: $12,709.00... The Powerwall would tie in with my existing 6.3kW (SolarCity) solar installation

What do you get for that price? Is that for two Powerwalls? If it is only one Powerwall, I don't understand why it is so expensive since you already have a solar system in place.

 

[Joelc]

What do you get for that price? Is that for two Powerwalls? If it is only one Powerwall, I don't understand why it is so expensive since you already have a solar system in place.

It's for a sIngle Powerwall (10kWh).

I'll have to get more details on the price (what is actually included that justifies the pre-rebate/incentive cost).

 

[bonaire]

I thought powerwall 2.0 was 14kWh?
That would show a spec of 5KW, with peak power of 7KW. Looks like they rate it as 6.4 when setting up a SGIP project.

SGIP pays at a rate of $1.31 per watt in program year 2016 for A.E.S.
There was a time a couple years ago with rebate of about $1.85/W - that drew in demand for big projects like the 100KW through 2MW ones. Cap of rebate is for projects of 3MW. This is why some of them were spread out among campuses or cities rather than one big single project.

Systems must run at their rated nominal power for 2.0 hours or more to qualify. Not peak power. This is when new - doesn't take into account annual degradation (which the tiered warranty does).

The only small system registered into the SGIP program for program year 2016 is app: SD-SGIP-2016-1100
That has an $1800 rebate but it's a cancelled project. None for 2017. Long waitlist.
2015 has some 5KW projects with only 2 "completed" with some smokin' rebates of $8,760.

Do not expect to get the SGIP program rebate unless you get through the wait list (which is used up by big install systems like the big Tesla SCE projects and other vendors). I hope they are not "guaranteeing" you the rebate.

Learn more and see the project-list spreadsheet at: Self-Generation Incentive Program

Projects and budgets are clearly defined there. Authorized collections from state funds dropped in 2016 and also the big projects eat up the funds quickly. One vendor cannot take more than 40% of the overall funds and so Tesla having many big projects may block the small ones from getting funds such as Powerwalls - they're right, get in the line early. Look through the SGIP project list to see how few small powerwall installs actually got rebates.

If you can afford it with Federal ITC only, then perhaps go for it but don't rely on CA SGIP. And lastly, if it is like other state programs elsewhere, you should get a 1099 for the rebate funds so that it can be claimed as regular income on your taxes. Don't think of it as free money. Even Solar PV owners today are now getting 1099s for their SREC sales.

 

[bonaire]

I also have a 6.6kW solar system which does not take care of all my electricity, and to me with net metering the power wall would only work for back up. If I'm thinking correctly if I store my peak production in a powerwall I will lose the credit earned when the meter runs backward. For my system this credit at peak prices is what makes my system work. If my power company takes net metering away then it might makes sense.

You can set when the powerwall is charged. Don't charge it during net-metering peak time. Charge it from say 10am-noon. At peak output, the 6.6KW solar can charge it up in about 2 hours. If your TOU plan is correctly setup, peak time should be the afternoon-evening hours. Or, charge the battery at night - however, it may not qualify due to dual-use system configuration (tax-wise) for the ITC credit.

Make sure your CPA and project manager know what you intend to do. If you are worried about not getting full solar credit during peak net-metering, you can dump your powerwall during the last waning hours of the peak period - such as 6pm-9pm. Solar output is lower during those hours and if you charged at night, you are dumping "cheap kWh" during peak net-meter periods and actually dumping power to the grid and still doing net-metering of that.

You'd have to make plans on what you intend to do. No matter what, investing the cash may have better returns than trying to use a Powerwall for arbitrage - then again, it will be a fine product should the grid go away for a long period of time. Taking a loan to get a powerwall system is certainly not economical especially if the CA SGIP payment fails to come through.

If you have SolarEdge equipment, you can almost go off-grid during grid failures. A powerwall for a big Time of Use rate plan arbitrage does make sense now. You are net-metering your battery power out at the same rate as the solar pv - it's the same electricity. Some people are looking at a powerwall only - without solar - if they have a TOU plan. They can charge at night at say .05/kWh and dump during the day net-metering out that power at .25/kWh or so. Then just remember you have about at 15% net-loss of power due to round-trip efficiency - may take 16kWh from the grid and then you dump out about 13.6kWh. Make sure you learn more about round trip efficiency costs of battery storage. Some of these factors are what makes me think that there are so few Powerwalls signed up for the SGIP program - many find that the financials don't make huge-sense but the combination of powerwall plus SolarEdge equipment make the islanding/off-grid potential as standby very attractive as a convenience factor and hedge against brownouts or rolling blackouts. Someone living in a cabin in the woods or mountains surely would want to go with this configuration. Very good choice for off-grid homes which historically needed deep-discharge Lead Acid batteries replaced every five years or so. They needed much bigger battery banks (horizontal floor-arrays) than what the powerwall's wall-mounted configuration. Some Lead Acid needed care and H2 venting as well.

 

[Merrill]

My other question is if I can use my existing inverters which are Fronius with the powerwall, and if not then that would be an added expense.

 

[bonaire]

My other question is if I can use my existing inverters which are Fronius with the powerwall, and if not then that would be an added expense.

Presumably you could - but would not be able to go "off-grid" and power circuits when the actual grid goes down other than the battery acting as a standby-only system. You need the circuitry of the SolarEdge inverter to operate power from the Solar PV array and dump into the battery and house even if grid signal is down. There is the possibility to add something like a SMA SunnyIsland type inverter. Of course, any new expense is applicable to the 30% ITC so you can save if you have to flip inverters to new ones. If you treat it like a hobby and not an economic choice, it can work out. Hobbies are expensive (I've done many in my lifetime and sure could have wisely avoided them - but then missed out on the life experiences). Best days of a boat owner are the day he buys it and the day he sells it. However, I've wisely not ever owned a boat We can eat at McDonalds every day but sometimes you want an upscale restaurant for the enjoyment.

 

[ecarfan]

My other question is if I can use my existing inverters which are Fronius with the powerwall, and if not then that would be an added expense.

Are you considering the AC Powerwall or the DC Powerwall?

The Fronius inverters are not compatible with the DC Powerwall. It requires the SolarEdge SE7600A-USS Inverter. The AC Powerwall has its own inverter and could be used with your Fronius.

I think the price you were quoted for a single Powerwall 2 is very high.

By the way, the usable capacity of a Powerwall 2 is 13.5kWh. See the bottom of this page Tesla Powerwall

If the company that quoted you the price you posted told you a Powerwall 2 is 10kWh, they are confused. Consider getting a quote from another company.

 

[Joelc]

Are you considering the AC Powerwall or the DC Powerwall?

The Fronius inverters are not compatible with the DC Powerwall. It requires the SolarEdge SE7600A-USS Inverter. The AC Powerwall has its own inverter and could be used with your Fronius.

I think the price you were quoted for a single Powerwall 2 is very high.

By the way, the usable capacity of a Powerwall 2 is 13.5kWh. See the bottom of this page Tesla Powerwall

If the company that quoted you the price you posted told you a Powerwall 2 is 10kWh, they are confused. Consider getting a quote from another company.

My bad, I typo'd.
The quote does say 13.5kWh Powerwall 2 (AC).

 

[bonaire]

Related article worth looking at.

When is Energy Storage Eligible for the 30 Percent ITC?

"The federal government does not want to incentivize people to ‘arbitrage’ energy from the grid," said Mike Kleinberg, Senior Consultant, DNV-GL. "You cannot charge from the grid in the evening and then discharge during the day to supplement your PV — and also qualify for the ITC, because you're not then really charging from renewable energy."

 

[JSkrehot]

Have been looking around for Powerwall 2.0 quotes and just got one back today.

Gross System Cost: $12,709.00
Estimated Rebates**: $4,935.00
Estimated Federal Tax Credit**: $3,812.70
Net Price After Estimated Incentives**: $3,961.30

Installation + 10yr warranty included.

The rebate amount is apparently the minimum I will receive but it may increase (I don't remember how or why, but maybe due to the timing of my purchase...earlier the better or something like that).

I believe the tax credit is the Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIP).

The Powerwall would tie in with my existing 6.3kW (SolarCity) solar installation.

I am still reading through various threads here re: the powerwall benefits, cost, net metering, etc. (great info)

But otherwise, thoughts?

I installed a 6.12 kW system in August myself. I'm responding to this because you mentioned Net Metering. I have Net Metering with PG&E. Since you don't get monthly electricity bills and only get a true up bill after an entire year, a Powerwall will do nothing for you "if your system produces enough power during an entire year." If your kWh production, matches your usage, a Powerwall will only make you more "green," it will not recoupe the cost of your Powerwall as the utility company buys back the excess power at 3.5 cents per kWh, at least with PG&E. If your system does not produce enough electricity for the year, yes, the above numbers you posted sound awesome.

 

[bonaire]

JS, dont forget to factor in the kWh lost during round trip charge, discharge of the powerwall on a daily basis. Is there an official number for that during each year of age as degradation occurs?

 

[ohmman]

I installed a 6.12 kW system in August myself. I'm responding to this because you mentioned Net Metering. I have Net Metering with PG&E. Since you don't get monthly electricity bills and only get a true up bill after an entire year, a Powerwall will do nothing for you "if your system produces enough power during an entire year." If your kWh production, matches your usage, a Powerwall will only make you more "green," it will not recoupe the cost of your Powerwall as the utility company buys back the excess power at 3.5 cents per kWh, at least with PG&E. If your system does not produce enough electricity for the year, yes, the above numbers you posted sound awesome.

This is good advice but I have a clarification. It's more about "if your system produces enough power to net your costs during an entire year." The last two years, I was a net consumer of 1+MWh over the course of the true-up cycle but still ran a $1000 credit with PG&E. This is due to my consumption being shifted to the off-peak period, and my production occurring during peak. Therefore, the economics don't necessarily favor matching production and consumption.

A second note - I have to forfeit that $1000 credit each year. They won't pay me for being a net user of electricity during the true-up period. My two Powerwalls will allow me to store some of my excess peak PV production and use it overnight to avoid the "dirtier grid". So in my case, there's a small economic argument for the Powerwalls, assuming I can manage my usage over the true-up. I won't be $1000 richer each year - but PG&E will be $1000 poorer. And, more importantly, I'll offset some of that evening grid usage.

The real reason for me is to cover us in the case of power outages. Most of the year, a two or three Powerwall setup should cover all of our needs at the house during extended outages. Since we're on well, it will also allow us to have water.

 

[bonaire]

Ohmman, you do the grid better service if you can dump your battery to the grid during peak demand periods of appx 6pm-9pm in CA. That also is net metered out at the higher rate. Then charge your EV off the grid overnight and recharge the powerwalls in the morning hours of 8am to noon so you can use only renewable energy to charge the batteries. That then makes the powerwall system eligible for the 30% ITC.

 

[Ampster]

- but PG&E will be $1000 poorer. And, more importantly, I'll offset some of that evening grid usage.

I am in the same situation as you, I have a dollar credit but a positive kWhr usage. I am not sure I understand how PG&E will be $1000 poorer?
Also with the new rates approved by CPUC I now pay a minimum $10 a month to SCE. Has that not rolled out to PG & E?