Nav on AP with Auto-Lane Change unusable in current state

[dmurphy]

Ty for quoting a bit that literally says to move over if traveling “AT A SPEED LESS THAN THE NORMAL SPEED OF TRAFFIC.”

Nowhere does that imply the lane is a passing lane only. What’s wrong with you?

Before you started this ridiculous argument, I said I was traveling at 80 mph in the #1 lane late at night with extremely light traffic. Therefore, I was not traveling at a speed LESS THAN the normal speed of traffic, and per your own freaking citation, I shouldn’t be told by my car to constantly get out of the lane. How many more ways can this be said?

There's nothing wrong with me, thanks for asking though. Maybe some thinning hair but that's about it.

I'm not arguing with you - just trying to explain WHY the software is doing what it's doing. If you don't like it, I understand (and, actually, agree with you!) but that's why. There's no onboard database of local regulations and laws, and given that "keep right except to pass" is the vast, vast majority of the laws of the land - except, apparently, when everyone is speeding in California - I'd say the developers are shooting the "majority rules" safety regulations.

Keeping right except to pass is safe (if annoying) for everyone. Staying in the left lane is not.

These things evolve over time. Hopefully we WILL get a constantly-evolving database of GPS-specific rules and road regulations as part of the FSD package - it almost HAS to be - but for now, it's pretty simple deterministic behavior. They shot for the majority case, and speeding in the middle of the night on I5 isn't the majority case.

That's all... we actually agree (contrary to what you think) - but I'm just trying to break down where the software development priorities are ...

 

[1.21GW]

I have tried NOA with no confirmation required. I agree with others that it isn’t really ready for prime time. It kinda drives like a jerk. It will switch lanes in front of people, random brake checks for shadows (regular autopilot too), starts slowing down far too early when approaching slower traffic.

I feel bad when it chooses to cut out in lane #1 when I see cars fast approaching from behind. Then it takes forever to decide to change lanes.

I like regular autopilot for the most part, but NoA has too many negatives at the moment.

 

[SammichLover]

Before you started this ridiculous argument, I said I was traveling at 80 mph in the #1 lane late at night with extremely light traffic. Therefore, I was not traveling at a speed LESS THAN the normal speed of traffic, and per your own freaking citation, I shouldn’t be told by my car to constantly get out of the lane. How many more ways can this be said?

If the person behind you would be going 85 if not for you sitting out in #1 blocking the way, that kinda counts as less than some of the traffic, right? Their choice of speed vs any posted limits notwithstanding. And really you can't be entirely sure if they'd do it or not until you get over.

Realistically this boils down to operating on the principle of "do I fit with the traffic to the right at this moment? if yes GTFOver". It is hands down the social thing to do. Probably the prudent thing to do for self-interest, as well. If someone wants to go a lot faster than you then getting out of the way so they can go crash somewhere that you aren't is a solid move.

 

[vikefan]

If you don't like it, I understand (and, actually, agree with you!) but that's why. There's no onboard database of local regulations and laws, and given that "keep right except to pass" is the vast, vast majority of the laws of the land - except, apparently, when everyone is speeding...They shot for the majority case, and speeding in the middle of the night on I5 isn't the majority case

That’s a long-winded way of saying “oh, you’re right.”

Yes, everyone speeds in California. The condescension doesn’t change the fact that what I’ve said throughout this entire thread about both the rules and the habits of California drivers is 100% accurate.

Regardless, I don’t even care if the car is in an area where the “passing lane” is supposed to be strictly that. I don’t think the car’s computer should be telling it to ping you repeatedly to get out of the lane if you don’t want to. At the very least, if they can’t improve the algorithm to intelligently decide what the best choice is, then they should give you the option to override that default functionality. Maybe it’s no problem for you, but for someone like me, who — again — drives in an area where it’s perfectly LEGAL and ACCEPTABLE to stay in the fast lane permanently, I don’t want to have to constantly manage this process manually.

And I get it. This is beyond first world problems. But if the goal is “self-driving”, then having a feature that requires me to constantly override the system manually defeats the entire purpose.

 

[vikefan]

If the person behind you would be going 85 if not for you sitting out in #1 blocking the way, that kinda counts as less than some of the traffic, right? Their choice of speed vs any posted limits notwithstanding. And really you can't be entirely sure if they'd do it or not until you get over.

Realistically this boils down to operating on the principle of "do I fit with the traffic to the right at this moment? if yes GTFOver". It is hands down the social thing to do. Probably the prudent thing to do for self-interest, as well. If someone wants to go a lot faster than you then getting out of the way so they can go crash somewhere that you aren't is a solid move.

No, that’s neither the intent of the rules on California roads nor what’s practiced by actual drivers on California roads. You’re swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction as Dmurphy. Again (and again and again), in California at least, drivers do not expect other drivers who are driving reasonably fast in the fast lane (75-80 mph) to automatically move over whenever they’re not actively passing someone. If you want to drive faster than that, it’s on you to figure your own way around people. That’s how it works here. I’ll even refer to dmurphy’s citation, which says you’re only expected to move over if you’re traveling at *less than* the NORMAL SPEED OF TRAFFIC.”

One person going 20+ MPH over the speed limit is not the normal speed of traffic.

I don’t know why people who don’t live here are so intent on telling people who do live here what driving here is like. It’s bizarre.

 

[vikefan]

The blog cites the relevant vehicle code in each state for the laws that pertain to "drive right, pass left." Makes them easily searchable.

I hear you when it comes to heavy traffic. A little 5 lane freeway stop and go is part of my daily commute. But, Autopilot has been programmed to obey the law. That means staying out of the #1 lane in well flowing traffic conditions (even includes an empty freeway/highway) except to pass, because it allows for faster (than you) moving traffic to safely pass on the left. Autopilot is doing the safe and legal thing.

And, born and raised Californian here.

See the other posts in this thread. That’s not the law in California. I don’t know why you were convinced it was, but it isn’t.

 

[Knightshade]

See the other posts in this thread. That’s not the law in California. I don’t know why you were convinced it was, but it isn’t.

Just for clarity- here's the actual law in CA regarding staying to the right when driving-


Law section.

ARTICLE 1. Driving on Right Side [21650 - 21664]
( Article 1 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

21654.
(a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation of subdivision (a) of this section.

(c) The Department of Transportation, with respect to state highways, and local authorities, with respect to highways under their jurisdiction, may place and maintain upon highways official signs directing slow-moving traffic to use the right-hand traffic lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or preparing for a left turn.

(Amended by Stats. 1974, Ch. 545.)

 

[1.21GW]

It’s the people that “think” they are going fast enough and sitting in the left lane that cause lots of aggravation.

Of course you are driving with the flow of traffic if you are controlling it...

If there is someone behind you and no one in front of you, please move over. It’s quite simple.

 

[hcdavis3]

You guys at least have a semi functional NOA. I was able to use it once after the latest firmware update. I’ve tried everything to get it to work to include every kind of 2 thumb-brake reboot, and power off in software and starting again after waiting 10 minutes. Nothing will get it to work for me.

 

[vikefan]

It’s the people that “think” they are going fast enough and sitting in the left lane that cause lots of aggravation.

Of course you are driving with the flow of traffic if you are controlling it...

If there is someone behind you and no one in front of you, please move over. It’s quite simple.

Ugh. No, you’re using a straw man argument. “The flow of traffic” isn’t referring to only the cars traveling directly behind you. The flow of traffic is the flow of the traffic all around you on the section of freeway you’re on. It’s (quite obviously) saying that you don’t need to move over if *the traffic around you*, including the traffic to the right of you and in front of you, is moving at the same approx speed as you, and you certainly do not need to move over if you’re traveling FASTER than the flow of traffic, as I was in my example, because I was one of 3 cars on the road at that time and going 80 mph. It’s absurd to even suggest that a car should move out of the #1 lane when it’s going 80 and there’s no one else on the freeway.

You’re also not reading the rest of the posts on this argument, because you’re talking as though this is all about whether or not a slow driver in the left lane needs to move over if someone’s behind them. That’s not what this is about or saying at all.

 

[Deslah]

Ty for quoting a bit that literally says to move over if traveling “AT A SPEED LESS THAN THE NORMAL SPEED OF TRAFFIC.”

Nowhere does that imply the lane is a passing lane only. What’s wrong with you?

Before you started this ridiculous argument, I said I was traveling at 80 mph in the #1 lane late at night with extremely light traffic. Therefore, I was not traveling at a speed LESS THAN the normal speed of traffic, and per your own freaking citation, I shouldn’t be told by my car to constantly get out of the lane. How many more ways can this be said?

If you don't want told by your car to change lanes, maybe you're not a good candidate for using software which is specifically designed to drive for you--and a BETA version of said software at that.

Patient: "Doctor...it hurts when I twist my wrist too far."
Doctor: "Well, maybe you should stop twisting your wrist too far."

 

[vikefan]

Ok, I'm tired of being a broken record. I took video instead of how traffic actually works in California so you can see for yourself.

Dropbox - 2019-05-11_13-19-front.mp4 - Simplify your life
https://www.dropbox.com/s/irgdz3xle7fwpj8/2019-05-11_13-21-front.mp4?dl=0
Dropbox - 2019-05-11_13-22-front.mp4 - Simplify your life

Notice: Nobody's moving in or out of the left lane for any specific reason, nor are they expected to. It's just another lane to travel in. For added measure, the two toll lanes in the left could even be considered their own "2 lane highway", and yet even there, the right lane is moving faster and no one has a problem with it. It's just another lane.

Stop posting the CA law. It was already posted, and it already definitively 100% validates what I've already said. The left lane is not an exclusively passing lane.

 

[vikefan]

If you don't want told by your car to change lanes, maybe you're not a good candidate for using software which is specifically designed to drive for you--and a BETA version of said software at that.

Illogical statement. Just because we're seeking self-driving cars doesn't mean we should just be happy with whatever the car does for us, even when it makes zero sense. Teslas also currently phantom brake at random times unnecessarily. Should I also accept that? After all, I want a car that can brake for me, right?

And yes, it's a BETA. Do you know what the freaking point of putting technology into BETA is?? TO POINT OUT PROBLEMS TO FIX BEFORE RELEASE.

Leaving a lane for absolutely no reason is something to be improved upon. I don't know why this is such a f-king controversial statement.

 

[vikefan]

Ok, I'm tired of being a broken record. I took video instead of how traffic actually works in California so you can see for yourself.

Dropbox - 2019-05-11_13-19-front.mp4 - Simplify your life

https://www.dropbox.com/s/irgdz3xle7fwpj8/2019-05-11_13-21-front.mp4?dl=0

Dropbox - 2019-05-11_13-22-front.mp4 - Simplify your life

Oh, and by the way, my car was telling me to get out of this lane while taking these exact videos for no other reason than simply to "change lanes out of passing lane". Please tell me why I should be leaving that lane in any of those videos.

 

[VT_EE]

In the vast majority of the world, the left lane is for passing (outside of the U.K., Japan, etc). Nobody is going to make an automated driving system that will park itself in the passing lane for the few places where the local populous seems to think that is acceptable.

 

[Deslah]

That’s a long-winded way of saying “oh, you’re right.”

Yes, everyone speeds in California. The condescension doesn’t change the fact that what I’ve said throughout this entire thread about both the rules and the habits of California drivers is 100% accurate.

Regardless, I don’t even care if the car is in an area where the “passing lane” is supposed to be strictly that. I don’t think the car’s computer should be telling it to ping you repeatedly to get out of the lane if you don’t want to. At the very least, if they can’t improve the algorithm to intelligently decide what the best choice is, then they should give you the option to override that default functionality. Maybe it’s no problem for you, but for someone like me, who — again — drives in an area where it’s perfectly LEGAL and ACCEPTABLE to stay in the fast lane permanently, I don’t want to have to constantly manage this process manually.

And I get it. This is beyond first world problems. But if the goal is “self-driving”, then having a feature that requires me to constantly override the system manually defeats the entire purpose.

Illogical statement. Just because we're seeking self-driving cars doesn't mean we should just be happy with whatever the car does for us, even when it makes zero sense. Teslas also currently phantom brake at random times unnecessarily. Should I also accept that? After all, I want a car that can brake for me, right?

And yes, it's a BETA. Do you know what the freaking point of putting technology into BETA is?? TO POINT OUT PROBLEMS TO FIX BEFORE RELEASE.

Leaving a lane for absolutely no reason is something to be improved upon. I don't know why this is such a f-king controversial statement.

My statement wasn't illogical at all. But you don't have an open mind on this subject, so no sense in continuing.

 

[vikefan]

In the vast majority of the world, the left lane is for passing (outside of the U.K., Japan, etc). Nobody is going to make an automated driving system that will park itself in the passing lane for the few places where the local populous seems to think that is acceptable.

“The local populace” meaning the entire state of California, population 50+ million people, 5th largest economy in the world, home to the actual factories where Teslas are being created, and where there are currently more model 3s on the road than anywhere else on the planet?

 

[vikefan]

My statement wasn't illogical at all. But you don't have an open mind on this subject, so no sense in continuing.

What you stated isn’t an opinion piece that requires an “open mind”. You implied that I shouldn’t complain about beta software because it’s in beta (which is exactly the point of beta), and you implied that I should just be happy with whatever the car does and however it does it purely because I’m using it. Neither of those things makes any logical sense whatsoever.

 

[Uncle Paul]

My rule of thumb is that everytime I get a new update for Autopilot, I do not turn it on until I am on a freeway and in a middle lane.
Staying in the right lane confuses it often, because of all the extra lines and varied lane widths. Also need to deal with merging traffic at different speed and congestion.

Do not use in in the #1 lane far left as it also runs dangerously close to median. Same with car pool lanes.

Once I get comfortable with it performing well in the middle lanes, and have gotten some personal experience with it's capabilities I will try the edge lanes.

No reason to "Test" it out in it's most difficult circumstances. Feel like it is kind of setting it up for failure.

I have enjoyed all the great progress that Autopilot has made over the 2 1/2 years I have had my X. It's capabilities have grown significantly and the advances seem to be comming quicker that before.

In other words...don't start testing the system until you understand the system.

 

[vikefan]

Ok, I'm tired of being a broken record. I took video instead of how traffic actually works in California so you can see for yourself.

Dropbox - 2019-05-11_13-19-front.mp4 - Simplify your life

https://www.dropbox.com/s/irgdz3xle7fwpj8/2019-05-11_13-21-front.mp4?dl=0

Dropbox - 2019-05-11_13-22-front.mp4 - Simplify your life

Notice: Nobody's moving in or out of the left lane for any specific reason, nor are they expected to. It's just another lane to travel in. For added measure, the two toll lanes in the left could even be considered their own "2 lane highway", and yet even there, the right lane is moving faster and no one has a problem with it. It's just another lane.

Stop posting the CA law. It was already posted, and it already definitively 100% validates what I've already said. The left lane is not an exclusively passing lane.

Oh, and by the way, my car was telling me to get out of this lane while taking these exact videos for no other reason than simply to "change lanes out of passing lane". Please tell me why I should be leaving that lane in any of those videos.

Bump because I’m still waiting for someone to look at those videos and explain why it makes perfect sense to them that my car was telling me repeatedly to get out of the “passing lane” throughout those videos.