Navigate on Autopilot is Going to Cause Accidents

[GoodOmens]

I think people are confusing when it's recommending a lane change when their is obvious cars in the way. I'm fairly certain if you confirm it will wait until there is a gap to change lanes.

While I haven't 100% tried it - I did wait until a car in my way was out of my blind spot before confirming and the AP still showed a red line for a bit before it merged over. The fact the car auto-slowed to allow some traffic coming onto the highway to safely merge was wild as well.

 

[JeffK]

I use navigate on autopilot every day. While it's not perfect, it's never put me in a situation which would have caused an accident. Having seen how it reacts on exits etc. I think it's a fantastic start.

 

[u00mem9]

Now we can see why they added the step to have the driver confirm the lane change. Without that step, the car would cause numerous accidents. Gut punch to the hope that the advertised EAP functionality was close to completion.

 

[Lawsteve]

In my opinion, the status of NoA is very similar to the initial versions of AP 2 when released. Early autopilot 2 was virtually useless. I had some pretty scary journeys using the first iterations of the AP 2.0 software and, if I had not been paying attention, certainly would have crashed through guardrails, across lanes, and into other vehicles (remember “truck lust”?).

I am cautiously optimistic the software will increase in quality over time. Just be patient and PAY ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!!

 

[aaron0k]

Respectfully disagree; NoA feels like a classic beta product in the software development sense of the word. Generally feature complete but a fair number of bugs to be worked out. Autopilot really is an open beta. First, because of the novelty of having betaware in an automotive product and second, because autopilot is generally feature rich, people seem to forget that in classical software development a beta product has bugs by definition.

I sort of get what you're saying; however this is a car, running beta software... with a human inside... if Napster (beta) crashes on me, then I might have to restart my download of "Party all the Time" by Eddie Murphy.

If Autopilot (beta) crashes or does something stupid... I might die, my passenger might die or others.

My point is Tesla shouldn't be so cavalier about Autopilot, especially during these development years. They really don't offer any instruction for drivers on how to use it safely, just warnings. Beta implies the software probably has faults yet to be discovered. However any beta that risks a human life, should require acknowledged consent that the user understands those risks and have been educated on proper use.

Would you let you a 16 year old driver use Autopilot? NoA? Without instructing them?

 

[Dan Detweiler]

I sort of get what you're saying; however this is a car, running beta software... with a human inside... if Napster (beta) crashes on me, then I might have to restart my download of "Party all the Time" by Eddie Murphy.

If Autopilot (beta) crashes or does something stupid... I might die, my passenger might die or others.

My point is Tesla shouldn't be so cavalier about Autopilot, especially during these development years. They really don't offer any instruction for drivers on how to use it safely, just warnings. Beta implies the software probably has faults yet to be discovered. However any beta that risks a human life, should require acknowledged consent that the user understands those risks and have been educated on proper use.

Would you let you a 16 year old driver use Autopilot? NoA? Without instructing them?

Just curious...should a car require you to be trained on the proper use of cruise control? That can kill you just as quickly. How about driving a standard transmission? That can CERTAINLY get someone killed if they haven't been trained on how to use it. When are we going to start taking responsibility for our own choices? If you don't feel safe...or qualified...or ready, then don't push the stalk down twice. It really is that simple.

Dan

 

[JeffK]

Just curious...should a car require you to be trained on the proper use of cruise control? That can kill you just as quickly. How about driving a standard transmission? That can CERTAINLY get someone killed if they haven't been trained on how to use it. When are we going to start taking responsibility for our own choices? If you don't feel safe...or qualified...or ready, then don't push the stalk down twice. It really is that simple.

Dan

heck, automatic transmissions might creep you right into an intersection.

I think cars should all come with some sort of manual which allows you to see how to do certain things and even lists warnings. If a car gets OTA updates it should have some sort of release notes. Perhaps they should make you opt in to such a feature...

 

[ajlja]

2018.42.4 here.
I just finished reading this thread and wanted to share my experience. I just completed my 2nd long distance trip last weekend. Denver to Minneapolis and back. I updated to 42.4 the day before my trip. The drive to Minneapolis was pretty poor conditions - cold and rainy. I'd like to focus more on my NoA experience driving back to Denver as the weather was clear and sunny, above freezing, and light traffic - it's the boonies pretty much the entire way.
I experienced many of the 'beta' issues others have talked about here... but there are a few experiences I haven't seen anyone else mention yet. I Navigated to nearly every supercharger along the way. When on NoA, it would always suggest I change to lane #2 in advance as it should and i'd confirm. However, whenever the exit came - it would move right off the exit ramp on its own w/o confirmation (though it sometimes flashed for confirmation as it was in the middle of exiting). I actually liked that behavior though was surprised no confirmation was necessary. Other than that - after going the majority of the way in the Mild or Medium setting of NoA I found it was never suggesting lane changes in time as I approached slower cars (mostly semis). I would give it every opportunity - let it slow down to follow the semi for a minute or so - expecting a suggestion but i'd quickly get frustrated and do the lane change like w/o NoA. Eventually I changed it to Mad Max mode and it seemed much better at suggesting lane changes in advance in this scenario though not perfect. Perhaps it's related to my car length distance setting at 1? (I can't imagine what a distance of 7 feels like btw - though i suppose i'll try it out).
About 50% of the time as I passed exits while in lane #2, NoA would suggest a lane change to #1 (which i'd ignore) and it would quickly slow down 13mph. Annoying, but it would've been dangerous if a car was near me. I also had a similar experience less often when passing semis. It would freak out and putt on the breaks as I was passing them (no one directly in front of me). The worst experience I had was when it did this as I was traveling though Omaha and there was a car behind me but not super close. I recovered by stepping on the gas fairly quick - but these experiences are fairly jarring - even if you're being a very attentive driver - as I was. Finally, if NoA moved me to lane #1 it would never ever suggest I move back to lane #2 as you're supposed to. It would gladly stay in lane #1 forever - like annoying drivers.

I loved using Autosteer to stay nicely in the lines and Adaptive Cruise. However, my hands would hurt after a while due to having squeeze the steering wheel unnaturally hard all the time to avoid the nags. I can see how tempting it is for people to use some sort of cheat device to compensate.

Lastly - I met the owners of the supercharger contract in Gothenburg, NE while eating lunch at the restaurant they also own next to it. They picked me out as the owner of the 3 that was charging. Guess I don't look like a local, lol. Super nice couple (I'm horrible at remembering names). They showed me pix of when the Tesla Semi stopped by, the engineers eating at the restaurant and described the custom charging rig - no pix (4 cables that hooked into 2 superchargers I think - something like that). They have other Supercharger contracts apparently too - in Wyoming and somewhere else. They said the contract in Gothenburg was their first contract and they have to pay Tesla $1 per charge. The others they don't pay anything. They said they were the ones to seek out installation from Tesla Tesla didn't find them. They own the motel right there too (Comfort Suites). Definitely patronize the motel and restaurant - nothing fancy - but they're huge supporters of Tesla and solid people. She has grey spikey hair if you see her hanging around. Go say hi

 

[miimura]

I loved using Autosteer to stay nicely in the lines and Adaptive Cruise. However, my hands would hurt after a while due to having squeeze the steering wheel unnaturally hard all the time to avoid the nags. I can see how tempting it is for people to use some sort of cheat device to compensate.

When I am using Autosteer driving long distance, I rest my elbow on the door and let the weight of my hand rest on the left side of the steering wheel. I don't grab the wheel hard, just barely close my thumb and index finger around the wheel. The weight of my hand and part of my forearm register in the steering and I never get nags.

 

[CarlK]

A good driver will make the autopilot safer and vice versa. The machine at this point has not disturbed Darwin's law.

 

[Eazyndn]

2018.42.4 here.
I just finished reading this thread and wanted to share my experience. I just completed my 2nd long distance trip last weekend. Denver to Minneapolis and back. I updated to 42.4 the day before my trip. The drive to Minneapolis was pretty poor conditions - cold and rainy. I'd like to focus more on my NoA experience driving back to Denver as the weather was clear and sunny, above freezing, and light traffic - it's the boonies pretty much the entire way.
I experienced many of the 'beta' issues others have talked about here... but there are a few experiences I haven't seen anyone else mention yet. I Navigated to nearly every supercharger along the way. When on NoA, it would always suggest I change to lane #2 in advance as it should and i'd confirm. However, whenever the exit came - it would move right off the exit ramp on its own w/o confirmation (though it sometimes flashed for confirmation as it was in the middle of exiting). I actually liked that behavior though was surprised no confirmation was necessary. Other than that - after going the majority of the way in the Mild or Medium setting of NoA I found it was never suggesting lane changes in time as I approached slower cars (mostly semis). I would give it every opportunity - let it slow down to follow the semi for a minute or so - expecting a suggestion but i'd quickly get frustrated and do the lane change like w/o NoA. Eventually I changed it to Mad Max mode and it seemed much better at suggesting lane changes in advance in this scenario though not perfect. Perhaps it's related to my car length distance setting at 1? (I can't imagine what a distance of 7 feels like btw - though i suppose i'll try it out).
About 50% of the time as I passed exits while in lane #2, NoA would suggest a lane change to #1 (which i'd ignore) and it would quickly slow down 13mph. Annoying, but it would've been dangerous if a car was near me. I also had a similar experience less often when passing semis. It would freak out and putt on the breaks as I was passing them (no one directly in front of me). The worst experience I had was when it did this as I was traveling though Omaha and there was a car behind me but not super close. I recovered by stepping on the gas fairly quick - but these experiences are fairly jarring - even if you're being a very attentive driver - as I was. Finally, if NoA moved me to lane #1 it would never ever suggest I move back to lane #2 as you're supposed to. It would gladly stay in lane #1 forever - like annoying drivers.

I loved using Autosteer to stay nicely in the lines and Adaptive Cruise. However, my hands would hurt after a while due to having squeeze the steering wheel unnaturally hard all the time to avoid the nags. I can see how tempting it is for people to use some sort of cheat device to compensate.

Lastly - I met the owners of the supercharger contract in Gothenburg, NE while eating lunch at the restaurant they also own next to it. They picked me out as the owner of the 3 that was charging. Guess I don't look like a local, lol. Super nice couple (I'm horrible at remembering names). They showed me pix of when the Tesla Semi stopped by, the engineers eating at the restaurant and described the custom charging rig - no pix (4 cables that hooked into 2 superchargers I think - something like that). They have other Supercharger contracts apparently too - in Wyoming and somewhere else. They said the contract in Gothenburg was their first contract and they have to pay Tesla $1 per charge. The others they don't pay anything. They said they were the ones to seek out installation from Tesla Tesla didn't find them. They own the motel right there too (Comfort Suites). Definitely patronize the motel and restaurant - nothing fancy - but they're huge supporters of Tesla and solid people. She has grey spikey hair if you see her hanging around. Go say hi

You can move either of the scroll knobs up or down and not have to grab the steering wheel.

 

[xav-]

I noticed an issue as well while passing a truck.. the car suddenly broke for no apparent reason.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Reading this thread again there seems to be a persistent perception that the nags are satisfied by squeezing the wheel. The nags are satisfied by torque force on the wheel, aka, turning force, not by squeezing pressure on the wheel. Like some have said, the simple weight of your hand resting on the spoke of the wheel will often supply enough torque force to eliminate the nags all together. If they don't, a simple flick of the wrist will take care of it.

Dan

 

[RedModel3]

We all have to keep in mind that this is not a conversation we were having 10 years ago. I think it's a given that none of the EAP/NoA features are better than a human. I have my own complaints, but I've driven with it enough to know when to use it and when not to. Heavy traffic is NOT the place for NoA, at least not until the lane changes are faster and smoother. Like any technology, it's best when it's used correctly.

By all means, report these issues to Tesla in order to improve the technology, but keep in mind that babies don't come into the world as fully functioning adults. In the meantime, pay attention.

Let's have this conversation 5 years from now, or even a year from now.

 

[voip-ninja]

I did my first drive with NOAP for just a short hop between work locations that involved a highway transition.

Did not like it at all.

The “alerts” to change lanes are hard to notice if you’re watching the road for the next boneheaded thing AP is going to do. At a minimum there should be an audio notification.

The worst thing it did was, as always happens on the highway there was a timing issue with exiting and other traffic getting on. In this case there was another on ramp ending before my exit. A huge dump truck hauling an enormous trailer was in the exit lane to our right and AP obliviously zoomed right up to him as he started to merge. I had to intervene and jam on my brakes not only out of concern we would hit the guy but due to not wanting to destroy the front of my car from debris falling off the truck.

No way I would trust this idiot thing to drive with my preschool kid in the car.

 

[djgarrett21]

Just curious...should a car require you to be trained on the proper use of cruise control? That can kill you just as quickly. How about driving a standard transmission? That can CERTAINLY get someone killed if they haven't been trained on how to use it. When are we going to start taking responsibility for our own choices? If you don't feel safe...or qualified...or ready, then don't push the stalk down twice. It really is that simple.

Dan

I agree with the sentiment but in practice NoA is very different in one key aspect, it is making driving decisions and is in control of the vehicle, a transmission is not.

Drivers need to by hyper vigilant with this feature. I agree drivers need to take responsibility for their own choices but also realize that NoA can and will make errors that require the driver to make some split-second decisions.

 

[ajlja]

You can move either of the scroll knobs up or down and not have to grab the steering wheel.

Great tip, thanks!

Reading this thread again there seems to be a persistent perception that the nags are satisfied by squeezing the wheel. The nags are satisfied by torque force on the wheel, aka, turning force, not by squeezing pressure on the wheel. Like some have said, the simple weight of your hand resting on the spoke of the wheel will often supply enough torque force to eliminate the nags all together. If they don't, a simple flick of the wrist will take care of it.

I only said 'squeeze' as a simplification of the methods tried as i've driven over 2,000 miles with it the past week. Include torque forces in my methods used which also contribute to hand pain over time. Sometimes I managed to find the right positions that worked for extended periods but it was oddly inconsistent. A hand resting on a spoke of the wheel isn't a position i'd personally use - at least one i'd use as an alert driver.

Heavy traffic is NOT the place for NoA, at least not until the lane changes are faster and smoother. Like any technology, it's best when it's used correctly.

Based on my account above, low traffic is not really the place for NoA either (yet). How exactly should we be using it correctly?
What is the best way to report these issues to Tesla? Please don't say Twitter.
Regardless, i'm still willing to beta test this stuff with everyone to help improve it.

 

[spesler]

Another data point. I commute with EAP around 60 miles of interstate every week day. I love EAP! I’ve tried to like NoA, given it the benefit of the doubt, but finally concluded it is slightly worse than useless.

At best, the lane change suggestions require the same amount of effort as if I requested one manually. At worst, it suggests something unacceptable and in doing so prevents me from performing a lane change that I want. I am on the fence as to whether I’d call it unsafe, but can appreciate the argument.

Currently, automatic exits are a party trick. It works at one end of my commute, but not the other. It also worked intermittently on a more complicated route I attempted when running errands in Atlanta this week.

 

[JeffK]

The nags rarely come on for me. I hold the wheel at all times at 10 and 2 or 9 and 3, my elbows are not resting on anything and the weight of my hands and arms alone plus natural movement prevents nags.

 

[ajlja]

The nags rarely come on for me. I hold the wheel at all times at 10 and 2 or 9 and 3, my elbows are not resting on anything and the weight of my hands and arms alone plus natural movement prevents nags.

I do 8 and 4 mostly and sometimes 10 and 2, but i've learned that 10 and 2 is no longer suggested/taught due to air bags. All I know is that my normal grip i've used for over 20 years isn't sufficient to avoid EAP nags most of the time.