Navigate on Autopilot lack of big rig recognition when passing

[Steveinlw]

I have had my 2022 3 with FSD since December 22. Not in the beta program and software is up to date. I had two issues today with using navigate on auto pilot. I will mention the more serious issue first. I was driving on the 73 tollway South in medium traffic and changed from the right lane to the middle lane go around a slow big rig before moving back over to the right lane so i could exit El Toro. I clicked the turn signal for a left lane change and NOA controlled the lane change. As i was passing the big rig on its left, and getting close to the El Toro exit, the NOA began a right lane change initiation, and as best as i can remember, showed a lane change blue box right right where the big rig should be, and was waiting for me to acknowledge the lane change so i would be in the correct lane to exit. No warnings. Nothing. I did not acknowledge, left NOA on, and sped up passing the truck, then acknowledged the right lane change. NOA controlled the lane change, and also navigated the El Toro exit correctly. This happened so fast, but i am pretty sure that the computer did not recognize the semi i was passing due to its position, color, speed differential, or whatever. I feel that this is related to the fatal accident where a tesla driver t-boned a semi that was crossing at grade, as the tesla computer was unable to pickout the crossing truck from the background. Maybe i missed something here, but it gave me no error and i was definately even with the truck.
The second issue happened about ten minutes earlier. I was following a box truck at about 5 miles an hour through an traffic light controlled interesction from a stop on a secondary road at a bit less than a car length, and at some point, the very aggresive red “take immediate control“ warning flashed and the audio alarm went off. The alarm stayed on a good 15 seconds, even after i moved the steering wheel multilpe times, until i backed off a bit from the truck. I am wondering if this is related to software updates made in response to the fore-mentioned t-bone crash. Maybe i was just following too close, or maybe the software thought i was headed for an object. I was using NOA.
A minor third issue happened at night the day before while driving within my subdivision at 25mph. The road is just wide enough for two lanes with parking on both sides. As i approached a car correctly parked on my right, my 3 started navigating toward the back of the parked car, moving to the right of the correct path that it had been previously following and slowing down. No warnings. No panic breaking. At that point, i took over the steering, and steered back to the left. The 3 will also sometimes do a full panic stop on some turns in my subdivision where there is an incline up as you clear the intersection. This is at very very slow speeds, and is repeatable. This happens while just using the adaptive cruise control.
comments?

 

[Mardak]

Sounds like "known" standard Autopilot issues getting confused by large trucks with incorrect detection or position predictions. The latter issue of following parked cars is "using it wrong" per Owner's manual:

​

Warning Autosteer is intended for use on controlled-access highways with a fully attentive driver.​

Not in the beta program

All of these should be fixed with the beta program, and hopefully the upcoming "single stack" from FSD Beta 11 makes it to all vehicles with standard Autopilot even without FSD package.

 

[EVRider-FL]

FSD is not intended for secondary roads, especially not a 25mph subdivision, so you shouldn’t be using it there. You said the last incident is reproducible using just TACC, but since it involves the car steering incorrectly, I don’t see how that’s possible.

Regarding the truck, sometimes AP miscalculates lane placement of adjacent vehicles, which is one of the factors responsible for phantom braking. I don’t think this has anything to do with the T-bone collision you referenced.

 

[Steveinlw]

Thanks for responding! I do appreciate the info. You are correct. The phantom braking when turning a corner in an intersection at a slow speed was with only the adaptive cruise control on. I was steering. Sorry if i incorrectly decribed the situation. i have a lot to learn.

FSD is not intended for secondary roads, especially not a 25mph subdivision, so you shouldn’t be using it there. You said the last incident is reproducible using just TACC, but since it involves the car steering incorrectly, I don’t see how that’s possible.

Regarding the truck, sometimes AP miscalculates lane placement of adjacent vehicles, which is one of the factors responsible for phantom braking. I don’t think this has anything to do with the T-bone collision you referen

 

[OncomingStorm]

I have had my 2022 3 with FSD since December 22. Not in the beta program and software is up to date. I had two issues today with using navigate on auto pilot. I will mention the more serious issue first. I was driving on the 73 tollway South in medium traffic and changed from the right lane to the middle lane go around a slow big rig before moving back over to the right lane so i could exit El Toro. I clicked the turn signal for a left lane change and NOA controlled the lane change. As i was passing the big rig on its left, and getting close to the El Toro exit, the NOA began a right lane change initiation, and as best as i can remember, showed a lane change blue box right right where the big rig should be, and was waiting for me to acknowledge the lane change so i would be in the correct lane to exit. No warnings. Nothing. I did not acknowledge, left NOA on, and sped up passing the truck, then acknowledged the right lane change. NOA controlled the lane change, and also navigated the El Toro exit correctly. This happened so fast, but i am pretty sure that the computer did not recognize the semi i was passing due to its position, color, speed differential, or whatever. I feel that this is related to the fatal accident where a tesla driver t-boned a semi that was crossing at grade, as the tesla computer was unable to pickout the crossing truck from the background. Maybe i missed something here, but it gave me no error and i was definately even with the truck.
The second issue happened about ten minutes earlier. I was following a box truck at about 5 miles an hour through an traffic light controlled interesction from a stop on a secondary road at a bit less than a car length, and at some point, the very aggresive red “take immediate control“ warning flashed and the audio alarm went off. The alarm stayed on a good 15 seconds, even after i moved the steering wheel multilpe times, until i backed off a bit from the truck. I am wondering if this is related to software updates made in response to the fore-mentioned t-bone crash. Maybe i was just following too close, or maybe the software thought i was headed for an object. I was using NOA.
A minor third issue happened at night the day before while driving within my subdivision at 25mph. The road is just wide enough for two lanes with parking on both sides. As i approached a car correctly parked on my right, my 3 started navigating toward the back of the parked car, moving to the right of the correct path that it had been previously following and slowing down. No warnings. No panic breaking. At that point, i took over the steering, and steered back to the left. The 3 will also sometimes do a full panic stop on some turns in my subdivision where there is an incline up as you clear the intersection. This is at very very slow speeds, and is repeatable. This happens while just using the adaptive cruise control.
comments?

for what its worth the lane change thing sounds normal from your description.... when NOA gets close to your exit and you are not in the proper lane it will become very persistant with wanting to get over. while you were passing the truck it wanted you to confirm the lane change but if i'm right, had you approved the lane change the lane line on the screen would have turn red and it wouldn't have actually made the lane change until you passed the truck. my 22 MYP has done something very similar a couple times

the second issue sounds like AP thought you weren't paying attention lol, the only time i've seen the take over thing pop up without no warning is if it thinks i'm on my phone or something. that said, its not clear from your post, you say you were using NOA but that you were able to back off the truck, i'm assuming this means you were giving it some accelerator which could make AP freak out if it thought you were going to accelereate into the back of a truck lol since it wont break while your foot is on the accelerator, just a guess there

the rest yeah, AP in city streets is decent but those are all known limitations really.

 

[gvdad]

I have had my 2022 3 with FSD since December 22. Not in the beta program and software is up to date. I had two issues today with using navigate on auto pilot. I will mention the more serious issue first. I was driving on the 73 tollway South in medium traffic and changed from the right lane to the middle lane go around a slow big rig before moving back over to the right lane so i could exit El Toro. I clicked the turn signal for a left lane change and NOA controlled the lane change. As i was passing the big rig on its left, and getting close to the El Toro exit, the NOA began a right lane change initiation, and as best as i can remember, showed a lane change blue box right right where the big rig should be, and was waiting for me to acknowledge the lane change so i would be in the correct lane to exit. No warnings. Nothing. I did not acknowledge, left NOA on, and sped up passing the truck, then acknowledged the right lane change. NOA controlled the lane change, and also navigated the El Toro exit correctly. This happened so fast, but i am pretty sure that the computer did not recognize the semi i was passing due to its position, color, speed differential, or whatever. I feel that this is related to the fatal accident where a tesla driver t-boned a semi that was crossing at grade, as the tesla computer was unable to pickout the crossing truck from the background. Maybe i missed something here, but it gave me no error and i was definately even with the truck.
The second issue happened about ten minutes earlier. I was following a box truck at about 5 miles an hour through an traffic light controlled interesction from a stop on a secondary road at a bit less than a car length, and at some point, the very aggresive red “take immediate control“ warning flashed and the audio alarm went off. The alarm stayed on a good 15 seconds, even after i moved the steering wheel multilpe times, until i backed off a bit from the truck. I am wondering if this is related to software updates made in response to the fore-mentioned t-bone crash. Maybe i was just following too close, or maybe the software thought i was headed for an object. I was using NOA.
A minor third issue happened at night the day before while driving within my subdivision at 25mph. The road is just wide enough for two lanes with parking on both sides. As i approached a car correctly parked on my right, my 3 started navigating toward the back of the parked car, moving to the right of the correct path that it had been previously following and slowing down. No warnings. No panic breaking. At that point, i took over the steering, and steered back to the left. The 3 will also sometimes do a full panic stop on some turns in my subdivision where there is an incline up as you clear the intersection. This is at very very slow speeds, and is repeatable. This happens while just using the adaptive cruise control.
comments?

Mine did this yesterday, scared the crap out of me

 

[mtbwalt]

One thing I have noticed with tractor trailer rigs… the rendering of them in the on-screen FSD visualization render often has them jumping around haphazardly and teleporting by 5-10 feet in random directions particularly while passing. Most other vehicles are fine but the big rigs flip it out. Occasionally the car will freak out by a rig sitting in the next lane that it thinks has teleported/swerved into my lane.

ngl passing these vehicles and having the rendering spaz out is is a little nerve racking.

 

[OncomingStorm]

One thing I have noticed with tractor trailer rigs… the rendering of them in the on-screen FSD visualization render often has them jumping around haphazardly and teleporting by 5-10 feet in random directions particularly while passing. Most other vehicles are fine but the big rigs flip it out. Occasionally the car will freak out by a rig sitting in the next lane that it thinks has teleported/swerved into my lane.

ngl passing these vehicles and having the rendering spaz out is is a little nerve racking.

haha yeah the twitchy trucks are kind of annoying. however, keep in mind that the visualization is a representation of what the computer is seeing, not actually what the computer is seeing. the world the computer builds for itself, if accurately represented on the display, would likely look like god awful, broken digital nonsence lol. i'm guessing the computer doesn't actually think the truck is teleporting, but rather the data being pushed from the AI computer is hard to interpret into a nice, pretty visual display and so it struggles in some cases to make sence of it.

 

[mtbwalt]

I have heard Elon describe the data stream that FSD relies on and I agree with you. However my car will sometimes issue warnings when passing a rig that is behaving normally but twitching around on the display.

One thing I am not sure of with auto steer and maybe someone can comment. Occasionally when you are passing or next to someone they veer slightly into your lane. When a human is driving, we unconsciously veer away from them in our own lane to give the other vehicle more room for their sloppiness, as part of defensive driving. Does auto steer do this as well? I think it is good practice to take manual control when you encounter a sloppy driver but I am wondering if auto steer just keeps its blinders on, waits until a collision is almost imminent before responding, or if it veers pre-emptively. So far I don’t think it veers pre-emptively.

 

[OncomingStorm]

i wish there was some official chart of AP abilities lol, but from my experience it does, but its very situational. like for instance, on my daily drive i often encounter lots of big trucks, when i'm passing one of them and they are riding on the line but not technically in my lane, i have noticed that AP will move to the outside of the lane while passing to give some extra room. if however they are close to the line but still in their lane fully it will still favor the center of the lane even if it feels snug. furthermore i do feel like it favors braking over moving out of position in your lane (probably views this as safer) and things like how close it will allow someone to creep over on you before reacting its tighter than i would be comfortable with if i were driving, but i'm guessing still well within tolerance for the computer.

not to say you should trust the computer implicitly, you shouldn't, always better to take over if you are not comfortable with what its doing lol. and this is basic NoA/AP not FSD Beta.