Near freeway divider collision - on autopilot

[Electroman]

OP - I have driven over 60k miles in AP1 + AP2. I am very very comfortable with AP and I can predict exactly how AP will react in almost all situations.

After reviewing your video I can say without a doubt that your speed was simply excessive for that stretch. Try against the same stretch in that same lane at the speed limit - you can go eyes closed with 100% confidence. Going at 80 requires a good amount of supervision unless you are in the middle lane with gentle to no curves and very clear lines. Simple rule: Never go at that speed in the rightmost or leftmost lane.

In fact if you want AP to drive then stay at no more than 5 over speed limit, except in straight clear stretches, and you will not have any problems.

You say you are a newbie, then dont you think you should learn the systems capabilities really well by driving close to speed limit, over a period of few weeks/months?

I can understand you were shocked and shaken, but you don’t have my sympathy.

 

[GolanB]

OP, did Tesla commit to reviewing the cars data and getting back to you? If not, you may want to escalate to the advanced autopilot team. They are the ones tasked with the next level of analysis; the ones that will identify whether AutoSteering or TACC was enabled at the time of the incident, and the ones tasked with bringing AP failures or issues to resolution. Be prepared to wait up to 29 days for a response (usually a prepared statement read to you by your customer service contact). They’ll either come back saying Tesla operated as designed, or that they’re working to address AP in the area in a future update.

I wish the front facing camera had an overlay (perhaps on a secondary video recording) which includes the console display; it would be very helpful for identifying rate of speed, AP status, and Tesla’s view of the world among other important details.

 

[PhaseWhite]

Did the car actually cross the lane lines?

Watching the video, I had the impression it was still basically centered on the lane when you intervened and the geometry just made the path head towards the barrier for a bit.

Given the markings I saw on the video, I'd be very surprised if a modern firmware version failed to make the turn, but the car doesn't shy away from obstacles like a human would...

This was my impression as well. Though I agree with the OP that this was a scary maneuver, it's not clear that the car would have hit the divider. There are plenty of situations where I take over because they are too close for comfort but not clear that AP would crash into something.

Also this video is quite different from the other video in the thread where the car clearly centered in the yellow lines leading up to the gore point.

 

[PhaseWhite]

OP - I have driven over 60k miles in AP1 + AP2. I am very very comfortable with AP and I can predict exactly how AP will react in almost all situations.

After reviewing your video I can say without a doubt that your speed was simply excessive for that stretch. Try against the same stretch in that same lane at the speed limit - you can go eyes closed with 100% confidence. Going at 80 requires a good amount of supervision unless you are in the middle lane with gentle to no curves and very clear lines. Simple rule: Never go at that speed in the rightmost or leftmost lane.

In fact if you want AP to drive then stay at no more than 5 over speed limit, except in straight clear stretches, and you will not have any problems.

You say you are a newbie, then dont you think you should learn the systems capabilities really well by driving close to speed limit, over a period of few weeks/months?

I can understand you were shocked and shaken, but you don’t have my sympathy.

Although I agree speed could have been a factor I don't think anyone should have eyes closed level of confidence in autopilot. That's really bad advice.

 

[Msjulie]

Although I agree speed could have been a factor I don't think anyone should have eyes closed level of confidence in autopilot. That's really bad advice.

What seems to be happening is everyone believes? that all Tesla drivers read these forums or the owners manual (honestly how many of you read it all?) and therefore deeply understand the limitations of the assistive systems, when and where to use them, etc?

We know how a Model 3 delivery is like 5 minutes.. there's no in-depth vehicle indoctrination into Tesla software guidelines, limits, whatever for new owners.

How many cars do you really need to study up on vs just get in and drive? We may not like it but it is what people will do.. Anyone here rented a car at an airport? Do anything other than get in and go? Ok maybe mirrors get adjusted.. expectations of how a car works is a big deal, predictability is a big deal.

One of Tesla's biggest flaws, in my view, is hubris and expecting new, naive owners to understand that there are hard limits to what are currently very sophisticated assistive devices but not full self driving, small print not withstanding. This hubris is reflected in the default resetting to on of features which have proven to be considerably less than 100% ready - I can't think of a more dangerous and avoidable set of circumstances. If, as @Electroman says, AP is not safe at +5 over the speed limit, why doesn't it disengage or flash the screen or whatever it takes to make the human take back control or start behaving within the software's required conditions?

In some future when Teslas are real robo-taxis and no one drives, hopefully there will be no limitations to understand. Until that time the car should default to being predictable and understandable. Perhaps new drivers should have to take an online test to be able to use AP or other assistive features in the car, to prove you know what you're doing and have read and understood the restrictions... I'm only a little kidding here.. it could be right on the main screen..

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

This was a very scary 4th of July traveling experience on the 55 north / 91 east interchange while on autopilot. I’ve also included the dashcam videos for review. I also did a bug report and had a 30 min call with Tesla to report the incident. I’m on version 2019.20.4.2

Me and a passenger were heading north on the 55 north / 91 east interchange in the far left lane (not HOV) on autopilot, and the lane curved to the right slightly with a divider that sent the HOV lane toward fast track (toll lanes) when my M3 appeared to be line straight toward the divider. Luckily my hands were on the wheel (I don’t trust autopilot on ANY curve yet, and this is why) and I was able to jerk the car back into my lane.

I was numb. Me and my boyfriend both were pretty shaken up because I was going around 75-80mph and it would not have turned out well for us if I would have hit that divider. I’ve reviews these videos and each time, I start to sweat watching it. I WILL say though, the M3 handled better than any car I’ve driven in my life when jerking it back into the lane. It was a seamless and safe maneuver...but my beloved autopilot has now scared me enough that I’m afraid to use it.

Please review the videos and provide feedback. The freeway lines are very clear and I can’t see anything that would have made the car confused. No warnings. Very very scary

- front camera

- left repeater

- right repeater

I agree 100% on not trusting AP. It's a beta system, and drivers must remain vigilant at all times.

In terms of this specific behavior, to me it looks more like the car's tendency to hug barriers than it thinking there was a lane present and trying to drive into the gore point, but I could be wrong too. One example I've seen is it really likes to hug the k-rails on the 60 through the Badlands. Had it tracked across the lane line in your case then it's without a doubt behaving dangerously. To be fair, it's risky to let it continue if you aren't sure about it's behavior.

With that said, it takes a bit of time to become comfortable with AP. It's Mario Andretti within ~20-30 feet of the car thanks to the ultrasonics+image recognition+radar. With image recognition+radar at ~20-30+ feet, it's kind of like a senior citizen student driver, especially for lane changes because it appears to struggle to appropriately classify vehicles based on size and will tend to act too conservatively around larger vehicles and act too aggressively around smaller vehicles. The exception to that is being able to sense changes in traffic speed/direction well before a human driver can thanks to the radar, which can also appear superhuman, although it also has more false positives in this case, which is fine too. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

One of Tesla's biggest flaws, in my view, is hubris and expecting new, naive owners to understand that there are hard limits to what are currently very sophisticated assistive devices but not full self driving, small print not withstanding. This hubris is reflected in the default resetting to on of features which have proven to be considerably less than 100% ready - I can't think of a more dangerous and avoidable set of circumstances. If, as @Electroman says, AP is not safe at +5 over the speed limit, why doesn't it disengage or flash the screen or whatever it takes to make the human take back control or start behaving within the software's required conditions?

In my experience AP does at times chide me for not taking control, especially when it has trouble during a lane split. It uses the same warning that comes up when I haven't been providing steering wheel input, which is confusing from a UX perspective and something they should change, but it can provide driver feedback IME.

At the same time, there are certainly cases where the system isn't aware of it's own shortcomings and doesn't request the driver take control when it probably should. In general that's why it's beta software and driver's should pay attention at all times.

I also agree about providing better documentation, but that's tough because there are specific and strict legal requirements for documentation, and the NNs used by AP don't exhibit behavior that can be quantified in a similarly specific and strict manner. We really need our legal system and UX to mature sufficiently to provide effective guidelines to companies so they can effectively communicate to users about fuzzy systems.

 

[Msjulie]

I
At the same time, there are certainly cases where the system isn't aware of it's own shortcomings and doesn't request the driver take control when it probably should. In general that's why it's beta software and driver's should pay attention at all times

Agreed but I feel like us informed forum members mostly know better; I work with other Tesla owners, bright enough folk but not well exposed to some of the facts discussed here. My family (siblings) are even less so and that is where Tesla's assumptions about well informed drivers fall down.

I also agree about providing better documentation, but that's tough because there are specific and strict legal requirements for documentation, and the NNs used by AP don't exhibit behavior that can be quantified in a similarly specific and strict manner. We really need our legal system and UX to mature sufficiently to provide effective guidelines to companies so they can effectively communicate to users about fuzzy systems.

Yeah that's a sticky problem for sure but it's also an argument for the car to behave more predictably even if it means being less smart. You can't always count of the level of information a given driver has about the systems.. always safest to assume none I would guess.

 

[MoHazee4]

This is why you must keep your hands on (or near) the wheel - especially in these situations. Excellent example of why the human is still needed for now.

AP isn't perfect - it is awesome and works really well ... but it's not perfect -- remember that.

 

[Glamisduner]

1) Never fully trust AP.
2) Trust it less where you have not used it before at the same time of day / night.
3) Trust starts over again after every update.

I have seen my car pass over the line next to a barrier before. OP did the right thing in taking control.

 

[calidreamz808]

Do you live close and can you repeat the drive? If not does anyone else live in the area that can give it a try and see if it is a one off mistake or if it repeatable and happens all the time.

Yeah it’s the same route each time we go visit family so I’ll see if I can try to see if the car will do it again but at exactly the speed limit.

 

[calidreamz808]

If I'm on auto pilot I generally choose not to sit in the fast lane or slow lane as they have a lot of competing lane changes versus a middle lane.

Totally agree but in my situation I was in the HOV lane but had to leave it to avoid going into the toll lanes. Oddly enough, this lane goes from hov to tolls. I had to exit the hov which after this divider, it will spill out into the 91 freeway. California freeways are CRAZY and make no sense, but normally I would never chill in the passing lanes.

 

[immolated]

In this frame you can clearly see the causal factor. The lane you are in is light colored and closely matches the color of the left lane line (it's practically invisible in the curve), while the line going to the left of the divider is high contrast against a dark road. The car sees the high contrast line on the left, and sees the clear dashed line on your right and keeps you centered between them. The fact that it's a curve isn't really a factor...after 3 years I trust my AP1 100% on curves and take it through 70-80mph highway turns no problem (it just can't do sharp turns on city roads).

 

[calidreamz808]

OP - I have driven over 60k miles in AP1 + AP2. I am very very comfortable with AP and I can predict exactly how AP will react in almost all situations.

After reviewing your video I can say without a doubt that your speed was simply excessive for that stretch. Try against the same stretch in that same lane at the speed limit - you can go eyes closed with 100% confidence. Going at 80 requires a good amount of supervision unless you are in the middle lane with gentle to no curves and very clear lines. Simple rule: Never go at that speed in the rightmost or leftmost lane.

In fact if you want AP to drive then stay at no more than 5 over speed limit, except in straight clear stretches, and you will not have any problems.

You say you are a newbie, then dont you think you should learn the systems capabilities really well by driving close to speed limit, over a period of few weeks/months?

I can understand you were shocked and shaken, but you don’t have my sympathy.

I posted this not knowing this has been occurring and that someone died from it. Sadly the immediate “support” I got from this community was to blame me, which could be some of it. I’ll own my speed, but again, I had no idea it would be an issue. As a new owner, I was doing my part by paying attention and holding the wheel...give me some credit. By being unsympathetic that two folks could have been in a serious accident is your own issue. Blah blah blah blahhhhhhhhhh yes I know it’s beta. Yes I know I know which is why I was paying attention but my issue now is that since Tesla knows that this gore barrier *sugar* bug exists, why not educate owners. Not everyone sits on the internet as much as we do...we here on this board are passionate about the company and experience, but the everyday driver very well might be the ones who are getting hurt. Perhaps next time I’ll not share my experiences if people are going to assholes about it.

 

[calidreamz808]

OP, did Tesla commit to reviewing the cars data and getting back to you? If not, you may want to escalate to the advanced autopilot team. They are the ones tasked with the next level of analysis; the ones that will identify whether AutoSteering or TACC was enabled at the time of the incident, and the ones tasked with bringing AP failures or issues to resolution. Be prepared to wait up to 29 days for a response (usually a prepared statement read to you by your customer service contact). They’ll either come back saying Tesla operated as designed, or that they’re working to address AP in the area in a future update.

I wish the front facing camera had an overlay (perhaps on a secondary video recording) which includes the console display; it would be very helpful for identifying rate of speed, AP status, and Tesla’s view of the world among other important details.

Agreed. They emailed me for the videos and additional information because the rep I spoke to escalated the issue. I felt the incident was taken seriously and the follow up from Tesla was immediate. I have an additional email out to them asking some questions about what their plans are for these situations.

 

[Electroman]

Although I agree speed could have been a factor I don't think anyone should have eyes closed level of confidence in autopilot. That's really bad advice.

Sigh. Is that how you understood what I said.. kind of literally?

When I said, you could do it eyes closed at speed limit or 5+, I meant AP will have no issue negotiating that stretch.

 

[Electroman]

If, as @Electroman says, AP is not safe at +5 over the speed limit,

I didn't say that. I said, in almost all situations as long as there are:

a) lines on both sides (this eliminates splits and some exits, where you lose the line on one side)
b) driving at speed limit+5

then AP will have no difficulty driving through any road, any stretch, at any time of day , with the driver just idly supervising the road. AP does best in that situation. It is almost very close to being chauffeured. Technically there are no tricky situations that will trip you over.

But that doesn't mean you can't drive faster. On straight stretches I have driven 15 over without any issue. As you increase your speed higher, your attention and focus should be higher. If you are going 80 on a 65, you are inviting trouble in tricky situations like OP, and should be prepared to take over at a split second.

This is the important thing. A newbie does not know what conditions are tricky for AP. I for instance would have recognized the scenario ahead and reduce the speed much less, passed through that stretch and increased it again. And the only way a newbie will learn when AP would be jittery is through experience you gain by first driving closer to the speed limit a few weeks/months.

 

[shrspeedblade]

One aspect of the video I noticed that is connected to a different behavior by Autopilot several months ago: it over-prioritizes the left lane line. For nearly the first 9 months I had my car, it would navigate the rural roads in my area without jumping into the middle left turn lanes that occur periodically. Then, about 3 months ago, it begin to jump into them badly especially if it was on a left hand bend as it was "prioritizing" that left line and followed it into the center turn lane. I've sent in enough bug reports that somebody somewhere is probably tempted to turn my car off!

With the most recent update the behavior is better, it does it some of the time but not nearly so frequently. I wasn't too surprised to see the car prioritize what it thought was the left lane line in that video, as it is something I've seen (in safer circumstances!) with some regularity.

It's good autopilot usage to always have a hand on the wheel that can "block" the car from taking a line that is either incorrect or dangerous. In this case, the car just disengages autopilot itself when it tries to steer somewhere you won't allow.

 

[ngogas]

OP - I have driven over 60k miles in AP1 + AP2. I am very very comfortable with AP and I can predict exactly how AP will react in almost all situations.

After reviewing your video I can say without a doubt that your speed was simply excessive for that stretch. Try against the same stretch in that same lane at the speed limit - you can go eyes closed with 100% confidence. Going at 80 requires a good amount of supervision unless you are in the middle lane with gentle to no curves and very clear lines. Simple rule: Never go at that speed in the rightmost or leftmost lane.

In fact if you want AP to drive then stay at no more than 5 over speed limit, except in straight clear stretches, and you will not have any problems.

You say you are a newbie, then dont you think you should learn the systems capabilities really well by driving close to speed limit, over a period of few weeks/months?

I can understand you were shocked and shaken, but you don’t have my sympathy.

You are an idiot for saying this. The use case here is an issue that should be looked at and address. How would anyone know this rules? Did Tesla set forth this rule or did you? Are you kidding me on this that people who use this system should automatically know this?

Your type of statement is the reason why people leave this forum.

 

[Tam]

...light colored and closely matches the color of the left lane line (it's practically invisible in the curve), while the line going to the left of the divider is high contrast against a dark road...

1) I don't understand the mechanics of why Autopilot seems to be very good at lane keeping most of the time but sometimes it has a hard time making a decision when it encounters a gore point divider.

Why must it make a decision: Just keep centering as usual whether there's a gore point divider or not and it should not worry beyond its pay grade: Its job is to center within a present lane and not to make a decision on whether to leave the present lane at a fork in the road or not!

2) By the way: This stretch should be eligible as a road construction zone and in a strict sense, Autopilot should be disabled per its own policy.

You can see black tar covering up old white lane markings.

The very left lane which is lane number 1 which is also HOV lane which is also toll lane, is usually not a lane. It's not light color concrete like the rest. It's black asphalt. It's designed as an emergency shoulder, not a driveable path.

During temporary construction (in Southern California, that's a code name for "forever"), that black asphalt shoulder is now designated as a driveable lane.

3) This road condition is well marked and very clear unlike the one in the other fatal gore point divider in Mountain View which has very bad fading lane markings.

Anyhow, this may happen to me but because I have at least one hand on the steering wheel to get the steering action feedback for more than 2 years and I would seamlessly hold on the steering wheel to correct it in this case so I got used to it and I would not notice any difference.

My passengers, on the other hand, would all be stressed out every time, but I wouldn't because my correction is so instantaneously as if it's just a natural reflex to me.

In summary: My knowledge is limited to the extent that it's beta so have no idea what's the technical deal with gore point divider suicidal tendency. That said, Autopilot has been a great tool and very safe for me for more than 2 years and very valuable in a long trip (because my foot is ready to push the pedals and my hand is on the steering wheel ready to correct the undesirable steering as needed.)