Thanks for posting your alignment data. My Sig has similar wear patterns after 10k km, but seems worse on the soft 21's than my 19 winters with 20k km. This definitely points to an issue that only occurs on some vehicles from the factory, which explains the variance in wear between various owners.
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Negative Camber in the Rear and Expensive Tires
- Thread starter lolachampcar
- Start date
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
carrerascott
FUEL FTR
Thanks all. Tesla service supposed to get back to me buy COB tomorrow. Hoping they do the right thing. If these happened at 50k miles I'd say it was on me b/c I must not have had it aligned properly or at the right time. But at 5k miles, this should be on Tesla.
Unfortunately I'm 3hrs+ from the nearest service center, so we'll see how the Ranger service works for more pressing issues. Last service I had was for minor drivable stuff. I don't really want to put many miles on my new tires with those Toe settings, so hopefully they do this quick and make the $1000s I paid for ranger service worthwhile...
Unfortunately I'm 3hrs+ from the nearest service center, so we'll see how the Ranger service works for more pressing issues. Last service I had was for minor drivable stuff. I don't really want to put many miles on my new tires with those Toe settings, so hopefully they do this quick and make the $1000s I paid for ranger service worthwhile...
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
This whole issue got me thinking: When I take delivery of my P85 in September, would it be prudent and acceptable of me to demand the Oslo service center to do an alignment, free of charge, after 1-2 weeks of driving the car? I would think that with transport on train, boat, on- and off-loading, probably trailer transport in Norway too, the risk of alignment setting being knocked out of line is significant. Also my take away from this valuable thread is that negative camber is what is it (and for a good reason) but one must be careful to have correct toe for proper wear. I too will be wanting 0 or only very slight toe in on the rears and maybe a tad more toe in on the fronts (what is suggested toe in on the front wheels?).
Also, carrerascott, thanks for following up and posting your readings! I hope Tesla does right by you and at compensate you. Also it's interesting to note that you keep saying you're far from a service center etc. which makes me think your car was transported far by trailer - could this be a factor in misalignment?
Also, carrerascott, thanks for following up and posting your readings! I hope Tesla does right by you and at compensate you. Also it's interesting to note that you keep saying you're far from a service center etc. which makes me think your car was transported far by trailer - could this be a factor in misalignment?
I did a quick set of toe strings for changing the top links. I wanted to get toe close before driving to the alignment shop. These could give you a rough idea of where you are and would be more than sufficient to spot 9/32" toe out.
JPP
Active Member
So my 2 month old S85 with 19" Goodyears (about 2,600 miles) is in the Fremont SC for (among other minor items) an alignment (car points straight, steering wheel points about 5 degrees to the right). I have asked for the alignment printout. We will see where I was at before & after. I have asked for a tire rotation.
carrerascott
FUEL FTR
9 minutes till Rockville Service Center closes and haven't heard a thing. Can't say I'm happy...
carrerascott
FUEL FTR
carrerascott
FUEL FTR
Nothing (as of 6:42pm) despite this email yesterday :
" I have escalated this to my regional manager to seek further assistance. Either myself or my regional manager will reach out to you by the end of day*tomorrow."
Unimpressed.
This has been a week now, I've taken the initiative to get the alignment checked and new tires on my own dime. Little to no effort so far on Tesla's part.
So why did I pay all that $$ for Ranger Service?
" I have escalated this to my regional manager to seek further assistance. Either myself or my regional manager will reach out to you by the end of day*tomorrow."
Unimpressed.
This has been a week now, I've taken the initiative to get the alignment checked and new tires on my own dime. Little to no effort so far on Tesla's part.
So why did I pay all that $$ for Ranger Service?
The right hand "best service ever" does not know what the service providing left hand is doing..... Tesla needs to be very careful here least they fall into the all mouth, BS substance problem of a McLaren. It does not take much of a miss when you have set the bar soooooo high.
I have an email into Tesla Engineering regarding the wear (even passing along the data although I am certain they are following the forums). I've yet to hear anything back. That does not surprise me too much as I would think they are all hands on deck for European deliveries.
What is obvious to me is that there is an issue with the rears. The issue is significant. The issue can affect the cars image. The issue should be straight forward to address. And, the issue should rise on the importance list such that there is pro-active communication (unlikely as, apart from the rear seat latch where they could spin it into a positive, Tesla is not predisposed to pro-active communication) and a plan in place to efficiently deal with customers experiencing the problem. I really hope they do not drag-a** like Acura did with the NSX. Acura was lucky in that the NSX was a play toy. MS is a daily driver which puts more emphasis on its utility.
I have an email into Tesla Engineering regarding the wear (even passing along the data although I am certain they are following the forums). I've yet to hear anything back. That does not surprise me too much as I would think they are all hands on deck for European deliveries.
What is obvious to me is that there is an issue with the rears. The issue is significant. The issue can affect the cars image. The issue should be straight forward to address. And, the issue should rise on the importance list such that there is pro-active communication (unlikely as, apart from the rear seat latch where they could spin it into a positive, Tesla is not predisposed to pro-active communication) and a plan in place to efficiently deal with customers experiencing the problem. I really hope they do not drag-a** like Acura did with the NSX. Acura was lucky in that the NSX was a play toy. MS is a daily driver which puts more emphasis on its utility.
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I just picked up my new P85+ and took it straight to the alignment rack. Please disregard the reference values as they are for a five series BMW (my shop does not yet have MS in their database). It is interesting that the rear camber is -1.1 and -1.8 or an average of -1.5. This is roughly .7 degrees less than my P85.
My alignment tech also commented on the lack of caster in the front (fore to aft slant of the upright). It is about half of that normally found in something like an MB SL. Caster is used to promote straight line stability and add "camber jacking" to the front suspension. Near zero will cause the shopping cart effect where the car will hunt. Think a controlled version of the front wheels of a shopping cart when you push down on the back and push real fast like a skateboard. Anyway, this lack of front caster could be an underlying cause of the nervousness that many have commented on. I noticed (after not having a MS for six weeks) that I had to put a lot more effort into keeping the car going straight on the interstate on the way home. Lack of caster may be the reason.
I will be putting on new camber links on Monday and will measure the length of the P85+ ones to confirm that they are exactly the same as the P85. If they are, it would seem to indicate there is a lot of available adjustment in the "bolt slop" alone. I'll post the alignment values once the new links are on for comparison.
My alignment tech also commented on the lack of caster in the front (fore to aft slant of the upright). It is about half of that normally found in something like an MB SL. Caster is used to promote straight line stability and add "camber jacking" to the front suspension. Near zero will cause the shopping cart effect where the car will hunt. Think a controlled version of the front wheels of a shopping cart when you push down on the back and push real fast like a skateboard. Anyway, this lack of front caster could be an underlying cause of the nervousness that many have commented on. I noticed (after not having a MS for six weeks) that I had to put a lot more effort into keeping the car going straight on the interstate on the way home. Lack of caster may be the reason.
I will be putting on new camber links on Monday and will measure the length of the P85+ ones to confirm that they are exactly the same as the P85. If they are, it would seem to indicate there is a lot of available adjustment in the "bolt slop" alone. I'll post the alignment values once the new links are on for comparison.
Attachments
It's possible, but the effect of caster increases with speed so you should notice that stability increases as speed goes up. If you don't notice this, then I would look elsewhere. The other stability angle is SAI which isn't shown on the printout (you should ask why). SAI doesn't increase with speed so it's effect is less of a factor at high speeds.
Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) is included in the secondary angles portion of the print out and is 4.1 left and 4.3 right........ This is likely due to the upright design which places the upper ball joint in the center of the tire above the tire.
Here is a quick reference for explanation for those not so familiar with all the terms-
Wheel Alignment Explained
Here is a quick reference for explanation for those not so familiar with all the terms-
Wheel Alignment Explained
JPP
Active Member
I (hopefully) attached a PDF of my alignment @ the Fremont SC yesterday. Not sure if it helps to see the before (..presumably out of the factory) and new setup.
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I was at the Fremont SC today (...yes, Saturday) to pick up my car after a service visit for a number of small issues, including an alignment to fix the slightly out-of-midline steering wheel. I happened to chat with a senior service tech there who is their alignment/suspension guru, and he shared a few notes/observations with me. Many of these are probably well understood and better explained by lolachampcar:
The car was/is engineered with rear camber (as are many performance cars) to keep us 'untrained' drivers out of trouble by limiting/reducing oversteer.
This rear camber will lead to more inside tire wear.
When you accelerate and shift weight back a bit, and the car settles down a bit at the rear, the rear camber increases, as does rear toe, increasing tire wear.
The air suspension, while nice, has the unfortunate effect of altering the suspension geometry depending on how high or low the car is at (and of course at what height you did the 4 wheel alignment).
When the car lowers at highway speeds, the rear camber and toe increase, with more tire wear.
If you really want the best tire wear, get the standard (not air) suspension, and don't drive like a maniac.
The P85+ will have better tire wear due to more suspension stiffness and less shifting of the car and geometry.
Side note: Since the Fremont SC is attached to the factory, they are asked to do projects more related to testing and production in addition to their huge service load. The senior tech I spoke to has worked on a couple of 'test' cars to do the P85 to P85+ modification/upgrade, to see what training/documentation is needed, if the parts/fitment are sound, and how long it will take. It takes over 20 hours of tech time to do the full upgrade, thus the big $$ cost. Interestingly, the Fremont SC has 5 Model S owners signed up ready, willing & able to do the upgrade (regardless of $$). 2 are original Signature owners with the sig red, and do not want to give their cars up in trade.
- - - Updated - - -
I was at the Fremont SC today (...yes, Saturday) to pick up my car after a service visit for a number of small issues, including an alignment to fix the slightly out-of-midline steering wheel. I happened to chat with a senior service tech there who is their alignment/suspension guru, and he shared a few notes/observations with me. Many of these are probably well understood and better explained by lolachampcar:
The car was/is engineered with rear camber (as are many performance cars) to keep us 'untrained' drivers out of trouble by limiting/reducing oversteer.
This rear camber will lead to more inside tire wear.
When you accelerate and shift weight back a bit, and the car settles down a bit at the rear, the rear camber increases, as does rear toe, increasing tire wear.
The air suspension, while nice, has the unfortunate effect of altering the suspension geometry depending on how high or low the car is at (and of course at what height you did the 4 wheel alignment).
When the car lowers at highway speeds, the rear camber and toe increase, with more tire wear.
If you really want the best tire wear, get the standard (not air) suspension, and don't drive like a maniac.
The P85+ will have better tire wear due to more suspension stiffness and less shifting of the car and geometry.
Side note: Since the Fremont SC is attached to the factory, they are asked to do projects more related to testing and production in addition to their huge service load. The senior tech I spoke to has worked on a couple of 'test' cars to do the P85 to P85+ modification/upgrade, to see what training/documentation is needed, if the parts/fitment are sound, and how long it will take. It takes over 20 hours of tech time to do the full upgrade, thus the big $$ cost. Interestingly, the Fremont SC has 5 Model S owners signed up ready, willing & able to do the upgrade (regardless of $$). 2 are original Signature owners with the sig red, and do not want to give their cars up in trade.
That is the second time I have seen toe out in the rear on a factory car(???). I wonder what is going on that has permitted that to happen (set that way or moved since production).
The other interesting thing is that there is a camber spread from right to left on the front but not on the back. Both my cars have had a spread but it was the same front to rear.
The other interesting thing is that there is a camber spread from right to left on the front but not on the back. Both my cars have had a spread but it was the same front to rear.
cfOH
Member
So I should be picking up my P+ at the SC this coming week (hopefully). Should I call and ask them to do an alignment check even before I take delivery? Might be helpful to have "off the truck" baseline numbers, I suppose.
cfOH,
Mine looked good "off the truck". If they were having any issues in the beginning, and that is a big IF with only two car's worth of alignment data, they do not seem to be having it now with mine.
I did do a quick ride height and camber gain check on my car. It was not on a particularly flat surface so I'd consider these preliminary numbers. The ride height was from the ground to the highest part of the wheel arch. This is not how Tesla measures it but it will do for what I am doing.
Standard
Left Rear.................................Right Rear
29 3/16" and -1.2..................29 4/16" and -1.7 degrees of camber
Low
28 0/16" and - 1.9.................28 3/16" and -2.4 degrees of camber
So much for my camber gain calculations from my suspension drawings. It looks like there is -0.7 degrees of camber gain for 1" of ride height change. If your car starts with -2.1 at Standard then you are looking at -2.8 rolling down the highway. Ouch!!
Mine looked good "off the truck". If they were having any issues in the beginning, and that is a big IF with only two car's worth of alignment data, they do not seem to be having it now with mine.
I did do a quick ride height and camber gain check on my car. It was not on a particularly flat surface so I'd consider these preliminary numbers. The ride height was from the ground to the highest part of the wheel arch. This is not how Tesla measures it but it will do for what I am doing.
Standard
Left Rear.................................Right Rear
29 3/16" and -1.2..................29 4/16" and -1.7 degrees of camber
Low
28 0/16" and - 1.9.................28 3/16" and -2.4 degrees of camber
So much for my camber gain calculations from my suspension drawings. It looks like there is -0.7 degrees of camber gain for 1" of ride height change. If your car starts with -2.1 at Standard then you are looking at -2.8 rolling down the highway. Ouch!!
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