New owners and early adopter owners: Do I detect a major difference?

[benf]

On the other hand, the Model S costs what it does largely because of the batteries. Batteries still cost a premium compared to ICE. I have seen estimates that the Tesla battery pack costs somewhere between $20K and $30K. Tesla also makes $20K profit on the sale. Between the cost of the battery and profits, that's nearly 1/2 the sales price. The profit margin is probably as high as it is because Tesla hasn't lowered the price of the car and the cost of batteries has come down a bit.

If the Model S was an ICE, it would cost about $50K, which is in the ballpark of other full sized, well equipped family cars like a loaded Ford Taurus or Toyota Avalon. It gets far better mileage, better performance, and better cargo space than anything in that class.

There are some major problem with this logic. Let's just say the batteries "cost" $25k. That appears to be what Tesla charges for a retail for a replacement, but let's just overestimate and say that's their "cost." The Tesla has extremely inexpensive drive units compared to luxury car twin-turbo V8's with 8 speed transmissions. You can't just remove the battery cost and then pretend a good ICE drivetrain is free. I'll be generous and say that the BMW 550i drivetrain "costs" $15k less than the Tesla drivetrain/batteries. Now let's also be generous and give Tesla another $10k of bonus padding for R&D cost per car since this technology is so new. So now the "Tesla ICEV" is $100k - $25k = $75k. The exact same price as my old BMW 550. But now that it doesn't have the EV technology that makes Tesla awesome and even remotely worth its pricetag, it's just a crappier ICEV than a comparable BMW, Mercedes, or Audi in the $75k price range. I'm failing to see the point here

The other major thing that Tesla has going against it for people who are complaining about these things, is the interior & overall quality of the Model S is identical if you spend $70k or $140k. No other manufacturer does this. A base 5 series is nothing like an M5. A base E class is nothing like an E63 AMG. But a base 70 is identical to a P90DL in terms of materials used, fit and finish, build quality, etc. It would be slightly easier to swallow some of these issues when the car only costs $70k. But if I had paid $140k for a P90DL ($40k more for MAYBE a $2500 more expensive rear motor, some fuses, and a software update) I'd be even more pissed they didn't take some of my $40k and apply it towards build quality.

 

[Max*]

benf: Your numbers don't make sense. $70k is a base 70kwh model, $140k is a fully loaded P90DL (leather seats, heated rear seats, heated steering wheel, nicer trim, extended leather, interior lighting, better sound, air suspension, autopilot, etc. On top of the speed and range improvements). You either gotta compare base 70 to base P90DL, or loaded 70D to loaded P90DL.

Otherwise I see your point.

 

[msnow]

Well you haven't seen me yet! lol

- - - Updated - - -



It's pretty well known that Tesla's margin in the car is over 20%. Tesla does not lose money on each car, that's nonsense. The reason Tesla doesn't post a profit is due to capital expenditures to grow the company. If you looked just at the vehicle numbers, the margin is much higher than the typical ICE.

Well 20% isn't 50% [emoji3] but now that I re-read the post he never said 50. My mistake.

 

[wdolson]

There are some major problem with this logic. Let's just say the batteries "cost" $25k. That appears to be what Tesla charges for a retail for a replacement, but let's just overestimate and say that's their "cost." The Tesla has extremely inexpensive drive units compared to luxury car twin-turbo V8's with 8 speed transmissions. You can't just remove the battery cost and then pretend a good ICE drivetrain is free. I'll be generous and say that the BMW 550i drivetrain "costs" $15k less than the Tesla drivetrain/batteries. Now let's also be generous and give Tesla another $10k of bonus padding for R&D cost per car since this technology is so new. So now the "Tesla ICEV" is $100k - $25k = $75k. The exact same price as my old BMW 550. But now that it doesn't have the EV technology that makes Tesla awesome and even remotely worth its pricetag, it's just a crappier ICEV than a comparable BMW, Mercedes, or Audi in the $75k price range. I'm failing to see the point here

The other major thing that Tesla has going against it for people who are complaining about these things, is the interior & overall quality of the Model S is identical if you spend $70k or $140k. No other manufacturer does this. A base 5 series is nothing like an M5. A base E class is nothing like an E63 AMG. But a base 70 is identical to a P90DL in terms of materials used, fit and finish, build quality, etc. It would be slightly easier to swallow some of these issues when the car only costs $70k. But if I had paid $140k for a P90DL ($40k more for MAYBE a $2500 more expensive rear motor, some fuses, and a software update) I'd be even more pissed they didn't take some of my $40k and apply it towards build quality.

Point taken, I probably did exaggerate it a bit, your comparison to a $75K car is probably more accurate. Another factor that raises the price is the low production volume of the Model S compared to other cars. Tesla produced a little over 50,000 cars in 2015 and Subaru, which is the smallest mainstream car maker selling cars in the US made around 1 million cars last year. Tesla has to pay more for all their parts than every mainstream car maker because of their low volumes. That is one of the things you're paying for too. They should start getting better wholesale prices as their volume gets up around 500,000 cars a year.

The $100K ICE cars also carry some premium because of the cost of parts at the low volume production numbers they have, but a company that has lower priced cars can usually get some price breaks over Tesla which only has only two high priced cars at the moment.

Tesla does have the premium lighting package and the wood inlay dash, which are some extra trim things over the base car, but over the price range of the Tesla you are paying more for the technology increases than luxury increases. The step from the 70 to 85 is the price of the battery, the step between the RWD and D is the cost of the second motor and supporting equipment. Stepping up from the standard model to performance model is a bit of pocket padding, though there is possibly some improvement to the current handling in the drive equipment. Of course the autopilot is another tech upgrade. The ludicrous upgrade is almost pure profit for Tesla. They pretty much just enable stuff that is already there in all cars. I saw a video blog by kman in which he pointed out the battery pack in the 90D is identical to the P90D and the fuse is in the battery pack, so the 90D probably has the new fuse hardware, it just isn't enabled in firmware.

Most car companies add a lot of creature comforts as you go up in price, but with Tesla it's much more tech than creature comforts. Most of that tech is actually some sort of value added. It's a different way of thinking about cars.

 

[Polly Wog]

I think that this is a great thread. And, I think it shows the diversity of our membership. The vast majority of the posts make several good points, and very few have been mean-spirited. Per the little chart I've added above, I think our membership probably follows a Gaussian distribution. One could make up several ways to label it, but I chose what I did to make it as extreme as possible. I would definitely NOT put all new owners on the right, and all long-time owners on the left, as that simply isn't the case (as this thread demonstrates).

For myself, although I've only been an owner (and member) for about 2 years, I've followed Tesla since before they started building the Roadster. I would have joined TMC sooner, but I mistakenly thought I needed to be an actual owner to join - so I joined the moment I placed my order for my Model S. By my nature, I'm not much of a complainer, so I'm definitely left of center on this chart.

 

[AudubonB]

What I see at the center of that bell is "0SD".

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Everybody knows that that central majority of TMC members are best described as "OCD".

 

[wdolson]

What I see at the center of that bell is "0SD".

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Everybody knows that that central majority of TMC members are best described as "OCD".

SD = Standard Deviation

0SD = zero SD, ie the middle of the spectrum.

 

[JenniferQ]

SD = Standard Deviation

0SD = zero SD, ie the middle of the spectrum.

I think that was a joke...

 

[wdolson]

I think that was a joke...

You're probably right.

 

[Beavis]

It's been a while since I've posted anything or even visited the site. I just come here now to look for rumors of technical updates or common issues since I'm pretty settled in with my baby now. People like Flasher or Bonnie know way more than I do so I don't come to share any special knowledge that I have because I don't have any. But I found this thread and couldn't put it down. Fascinating. I mean, I had no idea that the new owners are going to rumble with the early owners. I am going to load my West Side Story CD into my Walkman and meet y'all noobies under the freeway.

 

[jerry33]

Circling back to my first point though - if Tesla would produce cars for stock, that would be better. People could choose their car in reality, not just in theory. Creeks, rattles, disappointing options, comfort issues, etc., would all be apparent at the test drive stage. Which would be better. In my opinion.

That's the dealer model. To do so you have to have significant inventory at each sales location, which puts pressure on the people there to sell what's in stock, and quickly, rather than what the customer wants. It adds cost with zero value. FWIW, my Model S with 63+K miles on it over three years has no squeaks, rattles, drivetrain issues, etc. As far as I'm concerned, Tesla's quality control is as good as any other car manufacturer and better than some.

 

[JeffS]

That's the dealer model. To do so you have to have significant inventory at each sales location, which puts pressure on the people there to sell what's in stock, and quickly, rather than what the customer wants. It adds cost with zero value. FWIW, my Model S with 63+K miles on it over three years has no squeaks, rattles, drivetrain issues, etc. As far as I'm concerned, Tesla's quality control is as good as any other car manufacturer and better than some.

The problem with the dealer model is not that cars are in stock. Sorry to factually disagree...but the factual problem with the dealer model that Tesla is resisting, is the franchise element. Dealers in the traditional model are licensed franchisees. That's the problem. Not the stock.

 

[mspohr]

That's the dealer model. To do so you have to have significant inventory at each sales location, which puts pressure on the people there to sell what's in stock, and quickly, rather than what the customer wants. It adds cost with zero value. FWIW, my Model S with 63+K miles on it over three years has no squeaks, rattles, drivetrain issues, etc. As far as I'm concerned, Tesla's quality control is as good as any other car manufacturer and better than some.

Two good points.
Dealers sell you what they have in stock which is rarely what you want.
(Plus Tesla has no spare capacity to produce inventory cars.)
My 85D with 25k miles also has no squeaks or rattles. Fit and finish is excellent.

 

[Cebe]

Personally, beyond the "don't get me stranded on the side of the road" type of reliability from Tesla, I will take everything else at "beta" quality, if it means advancing the technology, including Model 3. And removing the excuses the "old" car manufacturers had, because of proof by example. If that means the press releases are screwed up, the show and tells start late, I can't get a hold of a delivery specialist (because I'm so used to being on a first time basis with all the dealers from which I bought my previous cars), so be it.

So, when somebody posts "Tesla must get this better", they should really say "it is important to me, and customers like me, for Tesla to get this better". Me, I consider myself a beta tester for Tesla, and don't expect anything beyond the beta quality.

 

[ohmman]

Personally, beyond the "don't get me stranded on the side of the road" type of reliability from Tesla, I will take everything else at "beta" quality, if it means advancing the technology, including Model 3.
<snip>
So, when somebody posts "Tesla must get this better", they should really say "it is important to me, and customers like me, for Tesla to get this better".

To me, these statements seem somewhat contradictory. When someone posts "Tesla must get this better", isn't the implication "so that the wider car buying audience will adopt the Model 3?" That's how I look at it. I want Tesla to succeed, which is why I think they must get better at some things.

I don't want to misconstrue the consumer/manufacturer relationship, so don't take this literally. But as a parent, when I see behavior I don't want my kids to have when they're older, I provide feedback and correction. I don't just consider them "beta" humans. :wink:

 

[Cebe]

To me, these statements seem somewhat contradictory. When someone posts "Tesla must get this better", isn't the implication "so that the wider car buying audience will adopt the Model 3?" That's how I look at it. I want Tesla to succeed, which is why I think they must get better at some things.

I don't want to misconstrue the consumer/manufacturer relationship, so don't take this literally. But as a parent, when I see behavior I don't want my kids to have when they're older, I provide feedback and correction. I don't just consider them "beta" humans. :wink:

That is the implication, yes. It is however their opinion that is what it will take. It may very well be that rattles don't cost Tesla a single sale beyond them. Or it may be that the lack of AM radio in the X costs them thousands, yet didn't bother the original poster at all.

The "parent" analogy is valid, except that, in this case, the parent surrogate is Elon, not any of us We are the neighbours across the street going "how could they let those children wear *that* to school", projecting our values on that family.

If it wasn't internet, I would naturally get offended by the implication that, based on what I expect out of my Model S, I consider my children "beta" humans. But that would clearly identify me as an internet noob

 

[TomKristi]

Really? It came across as condescending? The guy jumped into our conversation, cut me off, informed me that HE was an early adopter with a truly condescending tone of voice. Sorry, but I didn't bring the Universe down on him. I asked his VIN as I would with any Roadster owner. That's not a put down. That's a normal intro among Roadster owners.

I'm human. After he was so rude to me, to have someone grab my arm and offer me a ride ... well I'm human. There is not a thing I did there that I'd consider condescending. I'm surprised you thought it was.

Keep in mind that in more than one post on this forum, I've made clear that as a Roadster owner with a VIN of 1194, I don't see myself as an early adopter. I knew I'd get my car. I consider the early adopters on this forum to be the guys here who put money down not knowing if they'd every get a car or not. True respect there.

So I'm not one of those who call themselves an early adopter. I don't need to label myself. But I am amused when I have someone in my face, informing me that THEY are an early adopter, as if somehow that makes it okay for them to cut me off mid-conversation.

First off, Bonnie, you are always a class act! We, too, have come across people like this. Regardless of when someone decides to buy a Tesla, does not give them the right to be an a..hole. It is so disappointing to hear of your experiences at the D reveal. We feel it is such an honor to get invited to these events. When you have people that act like that it is just unacceptable . We got our S in June 2013 and we still love to talk to people about it and wave when we see another Tesla. We were just at the Rocklin SC with our Sig X and there was a super nice young couple in their S. They came over and were delighted that we would show them our X They hope that this will be their next vehicle. Every day we feel fortunate to be driving a Tesla and to be a part of changing the world.

 

[JenniferQ]

It's been a while since I've posted anything or even visited the site. I just come here now to look for rumors of technical updates or common issues since I'm pretty settled in with my baby now. People like Flasher or Bonnie know way more than I do so I don't come to share any special knowledge that I have because I don't have any. But I found this thread and couldn't put it down. Fascinating. I mean, I had no idea that the new owners are going to rumble with the early owners. I am going to load my West Side Story CD into my Walkman and meet y'all noobies under the freeway.

Haha! Thanks for a smile.

 

[BozieBeMe2]

'AudubonB'
++++++++++++1,
I have a "mild" case of it, but I approve

 

[BozieBeMe2]

I'm just wondering how many new owners will stand up and say 'oh yeah, that's me, I totally am not an early adopter'.

This will not go well.

Quite the contra.
In the case of Tesla the man and Tesla the car, I like to think Nickola always felt things can be and should be - Better.
Nickola was, in my opinion, a genius out of place and time. Not all of his ideas have proven out (YET) but never less, those ideas were remarkable.
So, when it comes to Tesla the car, many of the basic ideas have been with us since Nickola's time. Elon and Company have vastly improved on the basics of the Tesla motor and added their "Special Sauce', to the mix. The disruptive nature in which this accumulation of thinking was applied became the basis of 'Tesla the Car'.
Believe it or not, Elon and Company, are not alone. As the old gospel songs lyrics said, 'A Change Gonna Come'.
Maybe not a adapt application of the phrase but I'll risk it here.
I do sincerely feel, that as Early Adopters or just plain Tesla Owners, we feel that this disruptive way of thinking, strikes a chord with us.
Other wise, why did we sign on with this new fangled automobile in the first place?, it's just a car, Right?
Don't get me wrong,
I really Love This Car!
Many people can and have attempt to make it or mimic it, but it's not the same.
So, bare with us Tesla People, We may scrabble and complain. But we do want the best for Tesla.
We want bragging rights to what is arguably, the Very Best collection of Ideas to date.
We get possessive, argumentative, but we tend to stick up for 'Our Car'