New Roadster Goodies for 2014

[Botbldr45]

Great thread!
I named wife Elon since she got her MS ....... She won't get out of it!

The battery upgrade is super nice and I like it and want it........ My wrinkle is that in Oct I come out of warranty. I have planned to buy extended warranties on both battery and body. If new battery comes out ....... Any idea when ....... And is battery extended warranty now a good idea???

What do you think??

 

[Eberhard]

I hope with a retrovit of the batteriepack, tesla will also add Supercharing otherwise on roadtours i will need 12h charging over night at 30A. i would enjoy a roadtrip to the Nordcap next year. without supercharger not possible (MS only)

 

[ecarfan]

400 Mile Pack (Was New Roadster Goodies for 2014)

I hope with a retrovit of the batteriepack, tesla will also add Supercharging...

Many people have posted to say that the Roadster will never be capable of using the Tesla Superchargers. I think they are correct.

 

[chickensevil]

In the short term your fears are valid. The reason is because there are people who bought Model S because they wanted a sedan but they really want a car the size of Model 3. There was a similar drop in Roadster prices as a fair number of people bought a Roadster because that was all that was available but when MS came out they sold or traded in to get an MS. But in the medium term there will be a market for both just like there is a market for Audi 4/6/8 and BMW 3/5/7. People will want different sized cars.

But I think FANGO is right in that you should not expect your car to be worth $70k in 3 years. Looking at the 2011 MB S550, $93k retail, are going for ~$50k today. So I would expect your car to be worth $50-$55k after 3 years. But what we don't know is whether EV's will hold their resale value better than ICE's because assuming the batteries hold out they shouldn't cost more and more to repair as they get older like an ICE.

Noted, I guess I am more used to lower priced cars which don't seem to drop value quite so sharply. I guess I will set my expectations more toward 50k.

I just fear the crazy stories about cars like the leaf where the price dropped pretty dramatically.

Is there a preferred upgrade path with cars of this nature where you tend to get the most resale value for the time you kept the car?

M3 is a very confusing abbreviation again since M3 has been associated with BMW for decades.

The added range is great even if you never take advantage of it. Now you know there is an upgrade path at least.

Hmmm you know after I wrote M3 I was thinking the same thing...

 

[FANGO]

Noted, I guess I am more used to lower priced cars which don't seem to drop value quite so sharply. I guess I will set my expectations more toward 50k.

I just fear the crazy stories about cars like the leaf where the price dropped pretty dramatically.

Is there a preferred upgrade path with cars of this nature where you tend to get the most resale value for the time you kept the car?



Hmmm you know after I wrote M3 I was thinking the same thing...

The leaf stories all neglect to mention that the leaf immediately "lost" roughly a third of its value due to incentives. If you don't take this into account, it looks like the resale value is horrid. There is less of this effect with tesla since its a smaller percentage, but it's still there. But that isn't money lost, it's really money you never paid to begin with. If you count leaf depreciation from the adjusted selling price, there is no issue with low resale values.

 

[spaceballs]

Many people have posted to say that the Roadster will never be capable of using the Tesla Superchargers. I think they are correct.

On 2.0 and 2.5, an Tesla engineer could do a firmware and hardware mod on the two HV battery cables from the ESS, and only problem is where to place the Supercharger port. On the 1.2 it would be little harder because of the PEM is longer and wouldn't leave much room room to connect up the HV cables.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

On 2.0 and 2.5, an Tesla engineer could do a firmware and hardware mod on the two HV battery cables from the ESS, and only problem is where to place the Supercharger port. On the 1.2 it would be little harder because of the PEM is longer and wouldn't leave much room room to connect up the HV cables.

Let's wait for more details on this SuperCharger matter from Tesla. IMO because of the new range of 400 miles Tesla is considering the Roadster a car for long distance trips. So maybe that Tesla will make also the Roadster capable of using SCs?

 

[FANGO]

Let's wait for more details on this SuperCharger matter from Tesla. IMO because of the new range of 400 miles Tesla is considering the Roadster a car for long distance trips. So maybe that Tesla will make also the Roadster capable of using SCs?

Would be no sense in having 400mi range if its supercharging capable. Not that there's much sense in it anyway, but even less if supercharging is available.

Also, they've said many times it isn't possible. I trust them on that.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Would be no sense in having 400mi range if its supercharging capable. Not that there's much sense in it anyway, but even less if supercharging is available.

Also, they've said many times it isn't possible. I trust them on that.

Two reaons:
1) Contention: a larger pack
a) decreases the number of trips that require Supercharging
b) increases the charging speed
2) Cell chemistry: a larger pack has a lower require power density

It might become possible to have Roadsters use Superchargers, but I doubt it'd be easy.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

It might become possible to have Roadsters use Superchargers, but I doubt it'd be easy.

Easy or not IMO the choice that will be done from Tesla on this matter will be more of PR kind rather than of technical kind. I don't think that Tesla wants Roadster owners wanting SuperCharging be upset.

 

[dhrivnak]

Easy or not IMO the choice that will be done from Tesla on this matter will be more of PR kind rather than of technical kind. I don't think that Tesla wants Roadster owners wanting SuperCharging be upset.

Tesla has already upset Roadster owners by not having 70 amp charging at super charger sites. This would have been easy to add as they rolled out new sites and they could have covered the cost by charging Roadster owners for an adapter. Supercharging is very unlikely with the Roadster as you would need to significantly redesign the PEM as well. The car and electronics are not designed for high current DC. That said I am very happy with the announcement of a new battery pack. Technically that is quite easy to do as it is the same style and design with the same size cells. The cells are just higher capacity. Similar to swapping a 40 watt light-bulb for a 75 watt one. There is virtually no engineering required and Roadster owners make a great test team.

 

[shrink]

Supercharging is very unlikely with the Roadster as you would need to significantly redesign the PEM as well. The car and electronics are not designed for high current DC.

I'm no engineer so can someone explain why they can't just bypass the PEM and onboard charger and wire directly to the battery to make Supercharging possible? With the small and elegant Model S charging port, I imagine some of the wires could go directly to the onboard charger for regular L2 charging and other wires directly to the battery.

Again, I'm no engineer, but I know my old LEAF's CHADeMO DC quick charging port worked in a similar way.

 

[djp]

Easy or not IMO the choice that will be done from Tesla on this matter will be more of PR kind rather than of technical kind. I don't think that Tesla wants Roadster owners wanting SuperCharging be upset.

Tesla is a public company - they're not going to spend engineering resources on technically difficult projects for 2,500 out-of-production Roadsters.

They're contractually obligated to offer new packs under the battery replacement agreements, and they're building them in the technically easiest way possible - by doing a 1:1 replacement of old cells with new ones. Higher range is a PR side benefit. It would be a lot more challenging to change the cell count or add DC bypass, which is why they announced a long range pack instead of a lighter one or a Supercharging option.

Elon himself has said point blank that Supercharging isn't in the plans for the Roadster. Don't expect it to happen.

 

[djp]

I'm no engineer so can someone explain why they can't just bypass the PEM and onboard charger and wire directly to the battery to make Supercharging possible?

They'd need to upgrade most of the supporting systems to do this:

- New Model S charge port
- Rewiring charge port, PEM and battery
- Add DC bypass contactors
- New firmware
- Possibly increased cooling

Plus all the testing needed to bring it to production. It's a lot easier to do a 1:1 swap of the battery cells to create a long-range pack.

 

[chickensevil]

They'd need to upgrade most of the supporting systems to do this:

- New Model S charge port
- Rewiring charge port, PEM and battery
- Add DC bypass contactors
- New firmware
- Possibly increased cooling

Plus all the testing needed to bring it to production. It's a lot easier to do a 1:1 swap of the battery cells to create a long-range pack.

I keep seeing mention that the charge port needs to be changed... Curious why this is needed. I mean couldn't they just make an adapter? We have seen them make a DC adapter for the Chademo connector, and they also have adapters for going from the roadster plug to the Model S. Why couldn't they just make an adapter for the roadster?

 

[djp]

400 Mile Pack (Was New Roadster Goodies for 2014)

I keep seeing mention that the charge port needs to be changed... Curious why this is needed. I mean couldn't they just make an adapter? We have seen them make a DC adapter for the Chademo connector, and they also have adapters for going from the roadster plug to the Model S. Why couldn't they just make an adapter for the roadster?

The Roadster doesn't have a locking pin on the charge port like the Model S does. I don't think Tesla wants 120kW DC going through an adapter without a locking mechanism. Plus the charge port isn't designed for that load, or for DC input.

 

[slcasner]

Tesla has already upset Roadster owners by not having 70 amp charging at super charger sites. This would have been easy to add as they rolled out new sites and they could have covered the cost by charging Roadster owners for an adapter.

Count me as one of those owners.

However, today at REFUEL I learned (in a conversation with a long-time Tesla employee who works on SC deployment and has argued for this himself) that adding the 70A Roadster HPC would not be as easy as we assume. The SC installation is 480V 3-phase power. To install the 70A HPC would require a step-down transformer that costs $3K and would add $5K including installation. Also, the contractors who do 480V work are commercial/industrial; they don't do 240V single-phase work.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

They'd need to upgrade most of the supporting systems to do this:

- New Model S charge port
- Rewiring charge port, PEM and battery
- Add DC bypass contactors
- New firmware
- Possibly increased cooling

Plus all the testing needed to bring it to production. It's a lot easier to do a 1:1 swap of the battery cells to create a long-range pack.

@djp

A part from the fact that I agree with shrink that the PEM could be bypassed because SuperCharging is done by DC coupling, I can see that you also think it's possible to have SuperCharging for the Roadster. So why not? I don't think that for Tesla it's so much a matter of money being this subject of PR kind.

 

[djp]

400 Mile Pack (Was New Roadster Goodies for 2014)

@djp

A part from the fact that I agree with shrink that the PEM could be bypassed because SuperCharging is done by DC coupling, I can see that you also think it's possible to have SuperCharging for the Roadster. So why not? I don't think that for Tesla it's so much a matter of money being this subject of PR kind.

Yes, anything is possible if enough money is thrown at it. Elon said it's not happening and I really doubt his PR department is going to override him.

 

[jvonbokel]

- Possibly increased cooling

This is a great point that I don't think anybody else has mentioned yet. Rewiring, redesigning the PEM, etc, don't all seem terribly difficult from a technology perspective, but with the way the Roadster's cells are packed together in a large block makes cooling improvements near impossible*. The Model S was designed from the ground up to support supercharging, and one of the necessary components is an advanced cooling system that can keep the cells from overheating while receiving such a high rate of charge.

Think of it from Tesla's perspective... if you can't offer Supercharging for Roadster owners, what's the next best thing you can do? Give them enough range on one charge that the need for Supercharging is substantially less.

Also, think about the lifespan advantage of a 400mi battery. Rather than charging to 90% every day with the Model S to ensure 200+mi of range, most will be able to charge to ~50% on a daily basis.

*The only exception I can think of is if the cell count were lowered, in order to make room for a coolant line to snake through the rows/layers of cells. This could potentially improve weight/performance/charging, but at the expense of range. Clearly some would prefer this option, but I think they're in the minority, and as many others have noted, these types of improvements don't make as many headlines as "400 miles of pure electric range".