New tweet from Tesla: will sell their own CCS adaptor “soon” in North America

[Tronguy]

So, regarding this business with the CCS, the J1772, the adapter, and shock hazards.

1. A Big Deal with the Tesla connector, the CCS, the J1772, and any other blame connector between a BEV and the Outside World is that Power Is Not Applied From Outside or Inside until the connector and car are mated. This is supposed to be fail-safe on steroids: Those little bitty pins have pull-ups, pull-downs, and what all, so if one or more of those pins gets disconnected, the power gets removed from both sides, with prejudice. So, nobody's getting shocked here, right?
2. In a Tesla, the pins that carry power (the big ones) can be AC; in which case they go to inverters that convert the AC to DC and the DC thus generated goes to the Battery Management System; or they can be DC, in which case the inverters are bypassed and the DC goes straight to the BMS. The choice of whether to do so or not is up to the computer in the car; the computer in the outside box (DC or AC) communicates to the car what's available and the car rejects or accepts based upon what the external computer tells it.
3. So, yeah, the CCS happens to have both AC and DC pins that happen to be separate. The adapter can connect them together in some funky way; then, the communications protocol would talk to the outside box. Now, I suppose that at some Electrify America site the CCS box out there (I hesitate to call it a "charger", it's not really that, the charger's actually in the car) could supply AC, through one set of pins; or DC, through another set of pins; but I strongly suspect that it can't do both at the same time. I strongly suspect that there's Great Big Contactors inside an external CCS box that connects AC to the AC connectors; or DC to the DC connectors; and are extremely likely to be OFF as the default state. So, at first glance, looks like we've got a natural, built in MUX of sorts between the adapter and the very likely pair of contactors in the external CCS box.
4. Hence, it's not clear-cut at all that an all-in-one CCS box would damage itself or an attached Tesla, so long as the computer protocols are kept straight.

So, no more funny comments about, "shock hazards" unless one of you guys can point out the flaws in the above logic.

 

[STS-134]

So, no more funny comments about, "shock hazards" unless one of you guys can point out the flaws in the above logic.

The issue is that if everything would have to be connected together inside the adapter. The question was: why doesn't Tesla make a combined CCS1/J1772 adapter. And the answer is that if they did, when you are AC charging, the DC pins on the adapter (which are not covered by the J1772 connector plug) would be live AND energized with either 120V or 240V AC power. Touch those and you'll get the same amount of electric shock as if you touched the live prongs on a NEMA 5-15 or NEMA 14-50 plug.

 

[Tronguy]

The issue is that if everything would have to be connected together inside the adapter. The question was: why doesn't Tesla make a combined CCS1/J1772 adapter. And the answer is that if they did, when you are AC charging, the DC pins on the adapter (which are not covered by the J1772 connector plug) would be live AND energized with either 120V or 240V AC power. Touch those and you'll get the same amount of electric shock as if you touched the live prongs on a NEMA 5-15 or NEMA 14-50 plug.

Ah. The light dawns. So, one puts a CCS adapter on the car; then plugs a J1772 into the end of the adapter, leaving the DC pins exposed and live.

Yup, that wouldn't work. Except.. Maybe some work with some ME's to have a plastic shutter cover the pins when a J1772 is present, and not cover the pins when a CCS is present. Would have to be rugged and impossible for a fool to mess up, though.

 

[miimura]

So, regarding this business with the CCS, the J1772, the adapter, and shock hazards.

1. A Big Deal with the Tesla connector, the CCS, the J1772, and any other blame connector between a BEV and the Outside World is that Power Is Not Applied From Outside or Inside until the connector and car are mated. This is supposed to be fail-safe on steroids: Those little bitty pins have pull-ups, pull-downs, and what all, so if one or more of those pins gets disconnected, the power gets removed from both sides, with prejudice. So, nobody's getting shocked here, right?
2. In a Tesla, the pins that carry power (the big ones) can be AC; in which case they go to inverters that convert the AC to DC and the DC thus generated goes to the Battery Management System; or they can be DC, in which case the inverters are bypassed and the DC goes straight to the BMS. The choice of whether to do so or not is up to the computer in the car; the computer in the outside box (DC or AC) communicates to the car what's available and the car rejects or accepts based upon what the external computer tells it.
3. So, yeah, the CCS happens to have both AC and DC pins that happen to be separate. The adapter can connect them together in some funky way; then, the communications protocol would talk to the outside box. Now, I suppose that at some Electrify America site the CCS box out there (I hesitate to call it a "charger", it's not really that, the charger's actually in the car) could supply AC, through one set of pins; or DC, through another set of pins; but I strongly suspect that it can't do both at the same time. I strongly suspect that there's Great Big Contactors inside an external CCS box that connects AC to the AC connectors; or DC to the DC connectors; and are extremely likely to be OFF as the default state. So, at first glance, looks like we've got a natural, built in MUX of sorts between the adapter and the very likely pair of contactors in the external CCS box.
4. Hence, it's not clear-cut at all that an all-in-one CCS box would damage itself or an attached Tesla, so long as the computer protocols are kept straight.

So, no more funny comments about, "shock hazards" unless one of you guys can point out the flaws in the above logic.

It's not a protocol problem, it's a mechanical problem. The CCS charge port has separate AC pins and DC pins. When you connect a J1772 plug to a CCS equipped car, it doesn't matter if the big DC pins are exposed because they're not live and connected to the battery. There are contactors between the charge port and the battery pack that are engaged only when the connection to a DC charger is made and the isolation test is passed. In order to use the same Tesla to CCS/J1772 adapter for AC and DC, you would have to include high amperage contactors to pass DC to the battery pack and avoid shock hazard when AC charging. That would make the adapter at least 3X the size of the CCS adapter sold by Tesla in South Korea.

BTW, the "CCS box" is a charger. The on-board charger in the car is converting AC to DC. The CCS charger does actually do that too and passes DC directly to the car at the current level that the car requests. The on-board charger in the car is bypassed when CCS DC charging or Supercharging.

 

[astonius]

It's not a protocol problem, it's a mechanical problem. The CCS charge port has separate AC pins and DC pins. When you connect a J1772 plug to a CCS equipped car, it doesn't matter if the big DC pins are exposed because they're not live and connected to the battery. There are contactors between the charge port and the battery pack that are engaged only when the connection to a DC charger is made and the isolation test is passed. In order to use the same Tesla to CCS/J1772 adapter for AC and DC, you would have to include high amperage contactors to pass DC to the battery pack and avoid shock hazard when AC charging. That would make the adapter at least 3X the size of the CCS adapter sold by Tesla in South Korea.

BTW, the "CCS box" is a charger. The on-board charger in the car is converting AC to DC. The CCS charger does actually do that too and passes DC directly to the car at the current level that the car requests. The on-board charger in the car is bypassed when CCS DC charging or Supercharging.

Thanks all, this thread has been very informative. Essentially any non-Tesla to Tesla connector adapter can only ever have a physical connection to either an AC or DC source port, never both simultaneously, and a switching mechanism would need to be too robust or too complex to be worth it. Given that, this CCS adapter has zero physical connection to the AC J1772 current lines, only the signal lines from the J1772 side required to communicate between the car and the DCFC, and the DC current connections. Connecting a J1772 may be physically possible at the port level, but the AC current lines within the adapter would just be stubbed out, only connecting the signal portion and preventing any current flow.

Sound right?

 

[miimura]

Thanks all, this thread has been very informative. Essentially any non-Tesla to Tesla connector adapter can only ever have a physical connection to either an AC or DC source port, never both simultaneously, and a switching mechanism would need to be too robust or too complex to be worth it. Given that, this CCS adapter has zero physical connection to the AC J1772 current lines, only the signal lines from the J1772 side required to communicate between the car and the DCFC, and the DC current connections. Connecting a J1772 may be physically possible at the port level, but the AC current lines within the adapter would just be stubbed out, only connecting the signal portion and preventing any current flow.

Sound right?

Yes, that's basically correct. There are typically no pins installed at all in the AC conductor positions in a CCS plug. The upper portion usually only has the ground, control pilot and presence pilot pins. I would expect the Tesla CCS-1 adapter to be the same - no pins at all in the AC current carrying positions.

 

[KJD]

Tesla has tweeted that the company will start selling their own CCS adaptor “soon” in North America

https://twitter.com/x/status/1450287469849497600

OK 6 months and counting.

I wonder how many other things at Tesla are getting ignored while Elon spends all his time buying up Twitter stock.

 

[ecarfan]

OK 6 months and counting.

And that is why I put “soon” in quotes.

Who knows when it will go on sale…

 

[kayak1]

OK 6 months and counting.

I wonder how many other things at Tesla are getting ignored while Elon spends all his time buying up Twitter stock.

I have mine.

 

[VicIslander]

Has anybody tried A2Z EV Thunderstorm CCS1 combo adapter?

 

[bradtem]

Has anybody tried A2Z EV Thunderstorm CCS1 combo adapter?

Since they are taking pre-orders and hoping to ship mid August it would have to be an insider. On the one hand, if they ship it, you will be able to buy it now. On the other hand, as soon as Tesla starts selling them, you will be able to get the official, supported adapter for less, which would make me wary of how they will do as a business. Yes, it's just a dumb adapter so it probably will function fine if they did a decent job, but still ... who buys the Lectron J1772 adapter for $70 when you can get the official Tesla one for $49?

 

[theothertom]

as soon as Tesla starts selling them

soon....Elon time

 

[KJD]

soon....Elon time

Tesla has tweeted that the company will start selling their own CCS adaptor “soon” in North America

https://twitter.com/x/status/1450287469849497600

What is this "soon" thing you speak of ????

OP was from OCT 18

 

[avs007]

What is this "soon" thing you speak of ????

OP was from OCT 18

They must be new around here....

 

[VicIslander]

Since they are taking pre-orders and hoping to ship mid August it would have to be an insider. On the one hand, if they ship it, you will be able to buy it now. On the other hand, as soon as Tesla starts selling them, you will be able to get the official, supported adapter for less, which would make me wary of how they will do as a business. Yes, it's just a dumb adapter so it probably will function fine if they did a decent job, but still ... who buys the Lectron J1772 adapter for $70 when you can get the official Tesla one for $49?

Elon & Tesla's definition of soon is not helpful in Canada, where as soon as you start moving north from border, chargers start to limit you. The time lines for building superchargers is ridiculous. Also I some how doubt Tesla's pricing is going to be less than A2Z's which includes taxes and shipping. It would certainly be nice if it was in the $49 range or $100.

 

[ecarfan]

What is this "soon" thing you speak of ????

OP was from OCT 18

And that is why I put “soon” in quotes.

 

[bradtem]

Elon & Tesla's definition of soon is not helpful in Canada, where as soon as you start moving north from border, chargers start to limit you. The time lines for building superchargers is ridiculous. Also I some how doubt Tesla's pricing is going to be less than A2Z's which includes taxes and shipping. It would certainly be nice if it was in the $49 range or $100.

Usually US prices are lower than overseas prices. Since it sells for about $250 in Korea I predict a lower price (though not that much lower) in the USA. "Slightly higher in Canada" as the joke goes, but people in Canada are getting better and better at ordering stuff from the US to their PO box in Point Roberts or other such places.

I agree there's a lot more CCS at the Petro-Cans and superchargers are limited so I know why you want it. I was saying that until Tesla ships, the A2Z should be a hot item, but the day the Tesla one ships I don't have optimism for their business. Unless Tesla underestimates demand as they have in the past, of course.

 

[srs5694]

Unless Tesla underestimates demand as they have in the past, of course.

Don't underestimate this factor. Historically, Tesla has had a hard time keeping charging equipment in stock. Today, in the US Tesla store, the Corded Mobile Connector and NEMA Adapter Bundle are both out of stock, as are the NEMA 14-50 and NEMA 6-50 adapters. When Tesla still offered it at all, the CHAdeMO adapter was usually out of stock; as soon as its status change, all the available adapters were snapped up.

To Tesla's credit, they don't overprice these items; but buyers need to be aware that they aren't always readily available. This fact might help third-party suppliers of passive CCS1 adapters. If you want one soon (for an upcoming road trip, say), and Tesla's is out of stock, then paying an extra $50 or whatever for a third-party adapter may be acceptable.

 

[Midnightsun]

Don't underestimate this factor. Historically, Tesla has had a hard time keeping charging equipment in stock. Today, in the US Tesla store, the Corded Mobile Connector and NEMA Adapter Bundle are both out of stock, as are the NEMA 14-50 and NEMA 6-50 adapters. When Tesla still offered it at all, the CHAdeMO adapter was usually out of stock; as soon as its status change, all the available adapters were snapped up.

To Tesla's credit, they don't overprice these items; but buyers need to be aware that they aren't always readily available. This fact might help third-party suppliers of passive CCS1 adapters. If you want one soon (for an upcoming road trip, say), and Tesla's is out of stock, then paying an extra $50 or whatever for a third-party adapter may be acceptable.

The only stocking issue is all the reseller (non Tesla owners) snapping them up causing a shortage and making a profit on eBay. The Tesla store and all its purchases should be associated with your ID limiting most items to 1 per car. An exception for a lost unit, maybe you can buy 2.

 

[theothertom]

The only stocking issue is all the reseller (non Tesla owners) snapping them up causing a shortage and making a profit on eBay.

Is this happening with the wall connectors and adapters?