Newb Q--why must I use the brake pedal at all?

[seattlite2004]

Unfortunately in a much ruder way. Wish they would have made it less jerky, hopefully they fix that with their new models they bring out because as is it is inferior to Tesla's ride experience. The brake pedal feel isn't even close either but they probably can't fix that much, why I expect Tesla went the other route and didn't put any regen link on the friction brake pedal.

P.S. Also apparently the Bolt doesn't show the brake lights, at least not in a normal way. Person I know with one has been approached by someone from behind at a intersection to provide a friendly warning that their "brake lights aren't working". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Maybe they were using D then and that doesn't show the brake lights, not sure? Part of why they use the friction brakes anyway. The other part they do is that Bolt doesn't appear to have as firm a stop as a Tesla in 'Hold'. Probably should use the footbrake at the very end anyway.

The paddle is just a switch...to smooth out the agressive regen in L+Paddle mode....one feathers the accelerator....with practice one pedal driving can be a really smooth experience. Bolt's do have hold mode but it's only on on inclines....but yeah..on some slight inclines...there can be a slight roll and sometimes the auto parking brake engages, but in those instances I use the paddle to get me more resistance cuz I don't wanna shift my foot to the brake pedal. Regarding the brake lights...the Bolt's do light up during regen decel....but I think decel needs to be a certain amount to get the brake lights lit....kinda like coasting to a stop in an ice...brake lights don't come on if you don't hit the brake pedal.

 

[SammichLover]

The paddle is just a switch...to smooth out the agressive regen in L+Paddle mode....one feathers the accelerator....with practice one pedal driving can be a really smooth experience.

I'm not talking about the paddle. The L regen is a rougher, jerkier ride than Normal.

Bolt's do have hold mode but it's only on on inclines....but yeah..on some slight inclines...there can be a slight roll and sometimes the auto parking brake engages, but in those instances I use the paddle to get me more resistance cuz I don't wanna shift my foot to the brake pedal.

Right, brakes aren't actually on. Probably not firmly in place (otherwise the brake light should be on). Unclear how much the vehicle can resist if bumped hard. For the Model 3 the brakes are very firmly on when in Hold mode.

Regarding the brake lights...the Bolt's do light up during regen decel....but I think decel needs to be a certain amount to get the brake lights lit....kinda like coasting to a stop in an ice...brake lights don't come on if you don't hit the brake pedal.

So unlike the Model 3 they aren't on towards the end. I've never tried to watch but it might have been they are never on with D in certain circumstances.

 

[seattlite2004]

I'm not talking about the paddle. The L regen is a rougher, jerkier ride than Normal.

Right, brakes aren't actually on. Probably not firmly in place (otherwise the brake light should be on). Unclear how much the vehicle can resist if bumped hard. For the Model 3 the brakes are very firmly on when in Hold mode.

So unlike the Model 3 they aren't on towards the end. I've never tried to watch but it might have been they are never on with D in certain circumstances.

The driver modulates the accel pedal in L mode and can reduce/lengthen roll out to a complete stop. Maybe the driver wasn't used to the agressive regen in L mode and wasn't smooth on the accel pedal...thus the rough ride. Bunch of youtube vids showing the brake lights coming on during regen braking...and yeah they do go off after stop or close to stop.

 

[SammichLover]

I'm sorry you find facts to be "dumb" but they remain facts nonetheless.

It is a 'fact' that someone wrote/spoke it on the Internet. That's it.

...it's really that said design makes doing so without actually losing net power impossible.

Because kinetic energy is proportional to v^2 there is so little energy down there anyway, either way. Go ahead and take the integral of 4-0 and say 42-38 of ax^2 and you'll see just how insignificant it is in overall energy. Even just 14-10 the difference is massive.

<edit>should have drank my coffee first, no need to take integral, well you can to get a more precise number but it is more detailed than this to get there because you have to subtract other resistances from the curve before doing it and that's kinda not super simple and not needed for the first approximation to show just how little energy is involved relatively</edit>

I actually manually used gear shifting to use active motor stopping below 5mph to stop for a while, and sometimes still but in a "reversing direction" way, and still had amazing overall efficiency for the vehicle. That is something that would be very doable in software since it has the potential for far better control than my hand-foot. So it is very possible for Tesla to have done a wind down to 0 mph, handwaving about motor capabilities notwithstanding. This is boils down to Tesla making an esthetics and UX choice.

 

[SammichLover]

....and yeah they do go off after stop or close to stop.

Thus as I said the issue and the case in point, and why it certainly can be "no lights ever at all".

<edit> I thought maybe they used D, but then it occurred to me that's got a "creep" included, right? So it couldn't be at the end?

 

[seattlite2004]

Thus as I said the issue and the case in point, and why it certainly can be "no lights ever at all".

<edit> I thought maybe they used D, but then it occurred to me that's got a "creep" included, right? So it couldn't be at the end?

Sure just like any other car taking a long roll to a stop...even more so for manual transmission cars...no brake lights till near the end. Maybe D mode doesn't provide a high enough decel rate to turn on the brake lights....so D mode is no different than any other ICE vehicle when it comes to lighting up the brake lights.

 

[SammichLover]

Sure just like any other car taking a long roll to a stop

Nope. Because those have brake lights at the end, outside of very specific conditions and even then habit is everyone puts on their brakes anyway, and because of safety reasons to keep from getting knocked out over pedestrians and into cross traffic and such. Thus the bystander thinking he was being helpful. Which I guess he was in a way but not for the reason he thought he was.

 

[smilingra]

Thanks much for this thread. I had even taken a trip to the factory and asked one of the reps there, and they said, yeah, it comes to a complete stop. I guess maybe in flatter California, it does, but here in Colorado, I need an uphill or flat in order for it to work out for me. For me, I'm primarily trying not to use the brakes and then also don't want to waste energy. Now that I get this, I feel way less bad about braking when I get down to about 5 mph. I also agree with the posters that said it keeps you in the habit of using the brake pedal; I can see my impulse to do so go away after a while without regularly using it.

 

[cwerdna]

(As a relatively new to Bolt driver and uses L a lot....)

Regarding the brake lights...the Bolt's do light up during regen decel....but I think decel needs to be a certain amount to get the brake lights lit...

Yep. Also, another complaint about Bolt is that once you come to a complete stop via L (and I guess thru regen paddle), the brake lights don't remain on. Some folks have requested that GM turn them on in that case.

 

[bwilson4web]

(As a relatively new to Bolt driver and uses L a lot....)
Yep. Also, another complaint about Bolt is that once you come to a complete stop via L (and I guess thru regen paddle), the brake lights don't remain on. Some folks have requested that GM turn them on in that case.

You're here too?

We're both Prius alumni.

Bob Wilson

 

[stickman]

Just use the brakes to stop. For all the above listed reasons it’s a good idea. Unless your brakes look like sammich’s.

 

[StealthP3D]

For a novel approach, once you get below 5mph, engage R, then press lightly on the accelerator to come to a stop. No brakes needed! Who said the Permanent-Magnet Switched-Reluctance Motor could not regen?!? Just as good as a regen paddle.

At very low RPM's the motor in the Model 3 is not very efficient. So this would waste huge amounts of energy. And it' wouldn't be regen braking, it would be the exact opposite of regeneration. You would be consuming energy to brake!.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

At very low RPM's the motor in the Model 3 is not very efficient. So this would waste huge amounts of energy. And it' wouldn't be regen braking, it would be the exact opposite of regeneration. You would be consuming energy to brake!.

Yes. Exactly what I said...(see above)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

For me, I'm primarily trying not to use the brakes and then also don't want to waste energy. Now that I get this, I feel way less bad about braking when I get down to about 5 mph.

Great, glad that info from Sammich was helpful! Yes, the v^2 thing is super significant (in accidents too - this is one reason why they say speed kills...and why AEB when it works (meaning, it still crashes into things but more slowly) is so awesome!). Theoretically speaking, when coming to a regen stop from 45mph, you recapture roughly 98.8% of available energy by the time you hit 5mph! So from an energy perspective, you really don’t need to worry about having to use the brakes below 5mph and losing that 1%. If you are worried about that 1%, you should be driving in such a way that you never have to use regen (no green bar, no brakes). That would be ultra efficient, since no energy that exits the battery would ever be put back in.

That being said, for whatever reason some people who protest (not you) about Tesla’s design choice just never want to use the brake pedal. For these people, it’s not about efficiency as far as I can tell. To each their own. There are several reasons for Tesla’s choice mentioned above. It is what it is, and to me it seems fine. Regen is plenty strong if I am not driving like an a**. Just tap the brakes at the very end to come to a complete halt, if I don’t get my speed and coast perfect.

 

[smith9]

It trains your brain to remember that the brake pedal is there.

There could be some truth to that and maybe not.
But raises an interesting question. Once you use self driving, do you lose the ability to drive?
I suppose there is one counter argument, you never forget how to ride a bicycle and if you got on one you would instinctively know where the brakes are.

 

[MP3Mike]

And Tesla is claiming that an update in the next few weeks will be related to one-pedal driving and it is supposed to increase range. So it must increase regen, maybe all the way down to a stop?

 

[Kmartyn]

And Tesla is claiming that an update in the next few weeks will be related to one-pedal driving and it is supposed to increase range. So it must increase regen, maybe all the way down to a stop?

No, it will just bring the brakes in as needed. Just like the cruise control already does in stop and go traffic.

 

[cfichuck]

I'm not actually wanting it to regen down to zero. I just want the effect, I don't care how it works. I know it can and will brake for me sometimes using the actual hydraulic brakes, true? If it thinks I'm going to crash? I just want that same feature, applied at 4mph until 0 when slowing. This would also alleviate the "need to keep the brakes used occasionally" argument, as they'd be used at every stop, just by the car not the driver.

The "you'd forget how to use the brake pedal" argument is a really good one. I can live with that rationale. Tesla is maybe saving me from myself, by making me use the brake at every stop, in order to remind me that it's there and I can press it if I need to stop quickly.

Still, I advocate a "reverse creep" mode. It'd apply the brakes for me at 4mph, in the same amount of deceleration as regen has given me from 45 down to 4. Then, it'd hold the brakes for me while stopped until I pressed accel again.

That last 4 MPH is just what you need to bring the car to the stop line or light. I've been doing one pedal driving for some time now. One does get the hang of it quickly but having the car stop itself in precisely the correct spot seems a matter of personal preference anyway.. I like using the last 4 MPH to coast, or not.

 

[Knightshade]

There could be some truth to that and maybe not.
But raises an interesting question. Once you use self driving, do you lose the ability to drive?
I suppose there is one counter argument, you never forget how to ride a bicycle and if you got on one you would instinctively know where the brakes are.

Driving is a perishable skill (as are most motor skills- motor in the nervous system sense not the car sense)

That doesn't mean you'll entirely forget how to do the task if you don't practice it- but it means you'll get measurably worse at it if you don't practice on some regular basis.

 

[viper driver]

'member this??? back from the dead....Hold mode is 100% exactly what I asked for. Thanks Tesla! I just took a test drive with the new software.

No need to use the brake pedal at all anymore for me. I realize others won't/ don't like this and think it's possibly even unsafe as I somehow may forget what a brake pedal is or which foot operates it. Thats why there are now three choices and you can "have it your way"!

Tesla, THANKS! what a car! 8 months in and it's still just as amazing as the first time I drove it.