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Some of the bigger car companies are probably too fearful of liability from using connectors like NEMA14-50 for recharging. So, as Doug said, there will probably be some aftermarket "adapter" products that will do the job.

A question in my mind is Better Place compatibility. Better Place intends to be "rolling out" their charge spots soon and in many places there could be overlap between charge cable types. Will the Leaf on board charge spot locater show Better Place locations? Will you be able to get a Better Place account to recharge any type of EV? My take on some of the Better Place marketing was that they expect you to match a Better Place branded vehicle to their charge spots. Still waiting to hear about compatibility/interoperability. With Nissan a partner with Better Place it seems some kind of shared system would be even more likley. Or would there be a whole different system where you get a Leaf like vehicle for nearly free, but then have to "pay as you go" higher prices for power only at the Better Place charge spots. It seems like we are overdue for some sort of response from Better Place on the Leaf.

(I guess I will go do some Googling and see what I can find.)
 
BTW, Nissan has confirmed that the Leaf will be available *statewide* in California this year.

My favorite local Nissan dealer is Lithia of Fresno. For the sake of my local friends on the forum, their Leaf webpage is 2010 Nissan LEAF – 100% electric car, 0 emissions If you're also in the Fresno area, why not give them a call. Ask for Nissan sales, and Curtis will be happy to put you on their waiting list so they can call you when the first Leaf rolls in to their lot. (If you're in a different area, you might call your local dealer and find out if they have a waiting list) This is likely to be the first mass-produced EV for sale - even if you're not interested in buying, if you're anything like me you'd still be interested in looking :p)

On point 1: That's GREAT news ! (statewide CA)
On Point 2: If you are closer to the Sacramento Area, and interested in the Nissan LEAF, contact Dave Lewis at Nissan of Elk Grove, 916-405-5167(direct) or 888-306-6946. Mention my screen name to him ... it might "grease the wheels".
 
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The price point of the Leaf does not put it in the same category as the model S, so the statement still applies. Let's face it, the big knock against Tesla is that the average person can't afford the Roadster. The Model S won't change that as the average person can't afford it either. Tesla paved the way but the Leaf could be the real game changer that gets EV's in the hands of the masses.
 
..... Let's face it, the big knock against Tesla is that the average person can't afford the Roadster. The Model S won't change that as the average person can't afford it either. Tesla paved the way but the Leaf could be the real game changer that gets EV's in the hands of the masses.

The average person does not buy Roadsters, Porsches etc. or very sporty limousines. You are looking at different markets. Those car markets are nevertheless real and profitable in their own right.

The roadster market has allowed Tesla to ascertain technical leadership and a remarkable market presence, whilst being paid partly by customers to get there.

Tesla plans to enter broader markets in due course. Whether others can beat them to those markets remains to be seen. Whether Mr. Average will embrace enthousiastically 100-mile range limousine is not so certain, even if that range should become reality under every-das driving conditions.
 
I'm not criticizing Tesla's business model at all, just pointing out in response to Iz that the Leaf is really not going to be in competition with the Model S and that Nissan will probably blow Tesla away in volume by bringing affordable practical EV's to the general public. Initial interest shows that much of the public is quite willing to deal with the range limitations. Frankly at $25k the Leaf competes with some of the higher end home conversions out there. My Fiero conversion is going to end up between $12-$15k for about a 40 mile range, not including all my time, and it will still be a small 22 year old vehicle and not as nice as a Leaf. If I were thinking of a 70+ mile range conversion at this point I'd seriously think about a Leaf instead.
 
The price point of the Leaf does not put it in the same category as the model S, so the statement still applies.
Good point JRP. Roadster is targeted at a specific segment of the market, Model S at another, which may include Roadster owners. While I do agree that Leaf is targeted at the masses, the inherent risk will be range. As I posted previously, many Leaf owners are not going to be as familiar with range issues and recharge time as most of us who are familiar with EV battery limitations. Selling Model S with 200+ mile range to a few thousand well informed people is far different than selling a 100 mile range vehicle to tens of thousands. Some of those masses are not going to be as knowledgeable; but may make the most noise and attract negative press.
 

Selling Model S with 200+ mile range to a few thousand well informed people is far different than selling a 100 mile range vehicle to tens of thousands. Some of those masses are not going to be as knowledgeable; but may make the most noise and attract negative press.

I think the biggest difference will be in income rather than knowledge.
 
Indeed. Certainly most of us in the DIY crowd have more knowledge than money, and I suspect the members of the general public looking at a Leaf and are willing to deal with the "limited" range can grasp the basic concept. Let's face it, I think something like 10,000 people a day run out of gas in the U.S. so I'm sure at some point someone will run out of charge. Luckily for them there is usually an electrical outlet close by, closer than a gas station in fact.
 
Frankly at $25k the Leaf competes with some of the higher end home conversions out there.

Many RAV4 owners are ready to bail as well. Many are in the 100K plus miles, and Toyota is no longer supporting them so sell for 20K while you can. The prices on these will drop like a rock.

Toyota : RAV4 : eBay Motors (item 330419116693 end time Apr-06-10 15:30:00 PDT)

Time left: 1 day 3 hours (Apr 06, 201015:30:00 PDT) Bid history: 41 bids Current bid: US $19,654.00 and a lo 14,265 miles

and get a brand new car with all the bells and whistles and complete support.

RAV 4 Details for the record.


This Toyota RAV4-EV is an original Electric Vehicle (EV) built by Toyota Motor Company. This is an official production vehicle and is not a hybrid, conversion vehicle or early prototype built by Toyota. There were a limited number of these vehicles built during the late nineties / early two thousands and only 300 or so of these sold to the public, making this a future collector's item.

Battery pack in this vehicle is original and has been repaired back to full health by Battery M.D., Inc. Battery M.D. has over 20 years experience in the battery and electric vehicle field and is/was the official battery repair company for GM, Ford, Chrysler and Toyota’s electric vehicle programs.

This vehicle has been fully inspected (using a 95+ point inspection test) and refurbished by Blue Sky Motors, Inc. to be fully functioning and meeting original manufacturer's specifications (except where noted). Blue Sky Motors' 95+ point inspection tests include but are not limited to the repair and inspection of vehicle fluids, brakes, tires, heat / air conditioning systems. Many items have been fully replaced or repaired. Blue Sky Motors has refurbished and sold over 100 on-highway electric vehicles. Below lists the specifics of this vehicle:

Battery Type: NiMH (24 each 12-V Panasonic NiMH batteries for 288V nominal pack voltage).

*Note: The Panasonic NiMH batteries are known for their long life with very little need for repairs (per independent tests by Southern California Edison, claiming > 100,000 miles life). Several RAV4-EV owners have also achieved greater than 100,000 miles in their own real world driving. http://www.evchargernews.com/miscfiles/sce-rav4ev-100k.pdf

Range: Vehicle demonstrates an estimated 89.3 miles range (combination of freeway and city driving on level ground - test driven by a non-EV driver). Range test performed during summer time without any accessories running including HVAC and driving discharge test was stopped as soon as vehicle entered yellow zone on State-of-Charge gage (this is when Toyota manual advices stopping vehicle for long battery life). Over half of the range test included freeway speeds (65 MPH) and represents maximum real world range you can expect from these vehicles. Vehicle was fully topped up prior to range test. Ambient temperature during range test was 10.5 C (10/09). Range may be higher during warmer months and less during cooler months.

* Note: actual range will vary based on temperature, driving habits, speed, elevation changes, use of HVAC, heated seats, accessories, length of stand after charge, battery age / mileage and frequency of full charging.

Drive System: Permanent Magnet Motor (50 kW) with single speed reduction. AC drive with regenerative breaking. Front wheel drive.

Performance: An estimated 0-50 MPH in 12.8 seconds, top speed governed to 78 MPH, freeway compatible. Acceleration: 0 – 60 MPH in 18 seconds. See DOE report for more details. http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/toyrav98.pdf

Comments / Disclosures:

· Low Miles - Near Brand New!!!
· Vehicle is in great shape with the exception of some minor items – hardly noticeable but must disclose: 3 rock chips hood, slight scrape (2x) in paint at edge of drivers door, small door dings driver side passenger door, small ding left corner panel, 2 small black scuffs passenger side side.
· Interior excellent shape
· Air Conditioner and heater working great
· Includes RAV4-EV custom floor mats
· Front heated seats, electric windows and electric power door locks
· Programmable charge start time (for off-peak charging)
· Includes Magna Charge Power Conditioning Station (6.0 kW charger)
· Recently detailed both inside and out - vehicle looks Brand New
· Special Limited Traction Battery Pack Warranty: If range drops more than 10 miles within 6 months, ship vehicle back to us (FOB Sacramento) and we will repair it at no charge (includes parts and labor for batteries only). Special warranty applies only to the repair of the vehicle traction battery pack batteries only and does not affect the rest of the vehicle or other components (see details below).

Note: This vehicle is not effected by recent Toyota recall.
Terms and Conditions:

This vehicle is sold "As-Is" and "No Warranty" will be provided either expressed or implied by Blue Sky Motors.

Upon successful completion of the auction, winners will need to provide a $1,000 non-refundable deposit via PayPal within 48 hours of auction close or the vehicle will be re-listed. After the completion of the auction, Blue Sky Motors (a licensed vehicle dealer) will FedEx a sales package. Successful bidders are responsible for paying auction price (listed above) as well as all applicable sales tax (for CA residents), license / registration fees ($600.00 for CA residents) and a documentation fee of $55.00. The FedEx sales package will include the final price and detailed cost breakdown showing applicable tax and licensing fees. The sales agreement contract must be signed and returned along with a Cashiers Check, Certified Check or Money Order payable to "Blue Sky Motors, Inc." for the remainder of the balance within 10 business days of completion of the auction or the deposit will be retained and the vehicle will be re-listed. Credit Cards are not accepted and seller financing is not available.

Note: These vehicles are not listed in Kelly Blue Book and as a result, if you do obtain your own financing, additional assets will be required (besides the vehicle) to secure the financing.

Blue Sky Motors can provide a quotation for vehicle transportation for anywhere in the United States. No international sales will be permitted. After the final check has cleared and the completed sales contract has been received, the auction winner will have 10 business days to remove the vehicle. Any vehicle that remains on the property after the 10 day grace period will be assessed $20/day for storage.

* Caution: Due to the large amount of Ebay fraud – please confirm our address by contacting us through eBay or by calling us directly at (916-929-7508). Past customers have reported fake emails by people posing at Blue Sky Motors because of our excellent eBay reputation. Please confirm with us first before sending money.

......................................

Things to know before purchasing one of these vehicles.

Does this include the off-board charger (Power Conditioning Station, PCS): Yes, the vehicle includes the MagnaCharge PCS charger which utilizes the Hughes “small paddle” Inductive charge paddle. The PCS requires a 208Vac -240Vac / 30A input.

Will I be able to service my RAV4-EV by myself? This vehicle is a high voltage vehicle and requires special high voltage training and tools to repair. Service of vehicle by unauthorized service personnel can result in vehicle damage, damage to vehicle components, and injury. Therefore it is highly recommended that the auction winner live within 100 mile radius of a Toyota Authorized RAV4-EV repair facility for future support and service. See list below.

How long will the traction battery last? Battery M.D. is the official battery reconditioning company used by Toyota Motor Sales in support of other existing Toyota RAV4-EVs. Battery M.D., Inc. repairs the on-board high voltage battery pack to achieve the highest range possible with the use of State-of-the-Art battery cycling equipment. SCE claims that the Panasonic NiMH batteries can provide over 10 years / 100,000 miles life per their tests.

Note: Use of this vehicle in very hot climates such as Las Vegas or Phoenix is not recommended. NiMH technology can heat up in hot climates and takes too long to cool off prior to useage (charge or discharge).

Where do I purchase new battery packs when the time is needed: Replacement reconditioned NiMH modules and packs are available from Authorized Toyota RAV4-EV repair facilities. Contact your local Toyota repair facility for pricing information.

Are parts still available for this vehicle? Yes, there are some new parts and lots of lower cost (used parts) available for this vehicle. Contact your local Toyota repair facility for pricing information.

Expected driving range and performance: Nickel Metal Hydride battery packs can provide between 80 to 90 miles range (under normal driving conditions). See above for actual range of this vehicle. Driving range is a function of many conditions including temperature and driving habits. If you need to drive more than 70 miles between charges on a daily basis, this is probably not the vehicle for you. Even though it may be able to drive further, for best life, Blue Sky motors recommends that daily commuting should be no more than 70 miles between charges for good reliability. The vehicle has a range gage and several bells and alarms that are very helpful to let you know when range is getting low. Driving should never exceed the Toyota battery range limit warning lights (beginning of yellow zone on range gage).

Can I test drive the vehicle? Blue Sky Motors auto sales office is located in Sacramento, CA. Please call (916-929-7508) or email for an appointment as vehicles are not kept on the lot. We are open Monday – Friday, 8AM – 5PM. For after hours or weekend questions – please email and provide call back number.

Toyota Authorized RAV4-EV Service Facilities: While we do our best to provide accurate information, service center changes often happen without notification. Please check with your local service provider to ensure they still presently provide service and plan to continue providing service in the future prior to bidding on this vehicle.
 
There is almost a 10-year difference between the RAV4-EV and Leaf. Range however is only ~ 10 mile difference. :confused:
The price and pack size/weight is probably very different though.

The reason why 100 miles is still the range to aim for is because it seems that is the minimum range most people are comfortable with.
 
Indeed. Certainly most of us in the DIY crowd have more knowledge than money, and I suspect the members of the general public looking at a Leaf and are willing to deal with the "limited" range can grasp the basic concept. Let's face it, I think something like 10,000 people a day run out of gas in the U.S. so I'm sure at some point someone will run out of charge. Luckily for them there is usually an electrical outlet close by, closer than a gas station in fact.

It might actually be difficult to run out of juice with Leaf - it will give all kinds of indications including dropping to crawling speeds. And there is the free 3 year roadside assistence and teaming up with AAA to get quick charge roadside assistence.
 
If it were not for TM and WKTEC, Leaf, Volt, Karma, Aptera would be non-existent!

Quite possibly - though I've to say with the 2008 price shock and various emission capping programs around the globe, someone else would have restarted the EV story.

Here is an interesting interview.

The Leaf out of the green book - Times Online

Being late to the party works. Ask Steve Jobs, Apple’s chief executive. Napster pioneered music downloads but it was Apple with its iPod and iTunes that cornered the market for music.

Now Andy Palmer wants to do for “green” cars what Jobs has done for music.

Nissan’s head of green cars is off to a good start: he is way behind the curve. He does not sell hybrids, like his Japanese rivals, notably Toyota. He does not have a hydrogen car, like Honda with its stylish FCX Clarity. He doesn’t sell an electric car, like Mitsubishi’s nifty but pricey i-Miev.

In fact, Palmer, who lives and works in Tokyo, does not have a single green car in his range. “If you measure leadership by being the first car out there, we have already lost,” he said. But Palmer has a secret weapon: the Leaf.


So, will Tesla be like napster/Tivo/Palm or will they thrive ?

Another interesting bit

The Leaf’s battery costs £6,000 to produce ...

That is about $9,100. No wonder Nissan can make money @ $32K.
 
Comparing Rav4EV pack vs Leaf pack...

The price and pack size/weight is probably very different though.

Yeah - similar capacity, but I would say (very roughly):
Rav4 pack: ~3x as heavy (roughly 1200lbs vs 400lbs.)
Rav4 pack: ~3x as expensive (roughly $27K vs $9K.)
Rav4 pack: ~3x calendar life (roughly 15 years vs 5 years.)
...Ballpark estimates...

The old Rav4EV batteries are getting impossible to find.
When they finally wear out it would be a candidate for a Li-Ion retrofit.