Nissan Leaf

[eledille]

Iz: Eco-mode regen is a mistake.

IMNSHO, there are only two ways to do regen right: Applying a variable amount of regen when letting off the accelerator, or applying a variable amount of regen using the first part of the travel of the brake pedal. The Roadster does the former, the Think City mod. 4 that I have does the second - releasing the accelerator causes the car to simply coast. When going downhill it will regen to keep the speed constant, and you can switch on minimum regen by briefly touching the brake and switch it back off by briefly touching the accelerator.

Mixing these two might also work, i.e. applying regen as you release the accelerator, and adding even more regen when braking.

I'm used to control the braking of my cars, ICE and electric alike, with the brake pedal and acceleration and engine drag with the accelerator. Why start mixing in levers and modes when you can have total control using only the pedals?

The new Think City mod 5, the Leaf and the MiEV have eco-modes. I've tested the Think City 5 and the MiEV, and I dislike having to switch modes with the gear lever. With my old Think I can get precisely the desired speed in the desired amount of time using only the pedals. In the newer cars, normal regen is too weak, and in eco-mode acceleration is limited. Gah! I can limit acceleration myself if I want to!

Eco mode might be a good thing, but please keep the regen separate - in fact, weak regen is often more economical than strong regen - you release the the accelerator earlier and coast longer. Average speed drops together with consumption.

 

[dpeilow]

is Autoexpress Big in the UK? I could give the Leaf a major award too

Yes, definitely one of the bigger car mags. They've been getting a bit more EV-sceptic again of late too, so I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[vfx]

Dan Neil one of the best automotive writers in the world writes in the WSJ.

He has some choice quotes as usual. Here are a few:

The Leaf also represents one of the most daring bids for market dominance I've ever seen in the car business because no one, and I mean no one, knows if the damned thing will sell.

I have driven the future, and it's, well, kind of a four-wheeled Xanax.

[Goshen] has foreclosed the chicken-and-egg, EV-and-charging infrastructure objection by dropping his entire business on the henhouse.

... yikes. Dogs won't chase this thing.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...453710456516180.html?mod=WSJ_Autos_LS_Autos_3

 

[dpeilow]

^ and someone who clearly "gets it". A breath of fresh air to read a totally FUD-free article that just concentrates on the character of the car.

 

[vfx]

I'm still seeing ads on Cable TV here. About 60 percent the one that sells Nissans with the EV at the end and 40 percent the Lance Armstrong one. A friend who watched the Tour said the Lance one showed every few minutes.

These guys are really doing this. ---For real. It's a very cool thing to see it happening. I would buy one to support the effort if I had not already made my (large) contribution to the cause.

 

[JRP3]

I agree. With the $7k tax credit a Leaf starts to compete with the better longer range home conversions. And it comes with a warranty.

 

[tomsax]

I agree. With the $7k tax credit a Leaf starts to compete with the better longer range home conversions. And it comes with a warranty.

I haven't heard of a single conversion with a 100-mile range that comes close to the $32k base price before the tax break. Lead acid is cheap but difficult to scale up to 100 miles, and they tend to wear out in a few years and yield much lower range in cold weather. People are getting conversions to go 100 miles with lithium ion, but those conversions run $50k plus the car.

What's the best price you've seen for a conversion that has gets 80 to 100 miles of range in mild winter weather (30 to 40 degrees F) with batteries that can be reasonably expected to last 5 years?

 

[richkae]

If I didn't already have the Roadster I most likely would be buying a Leaf. Its either that or a conversion.
The conversion would cost a lot more, probably have similar range, have reliability concerns, but be much better looking.
You can look at the prices of the components on various EV websites, but two things you might overlook are labor ( because I certainly can't do it ) and the cost of either a newish car, or a nice restoration ( interior and exterior ). Without a nice restoration you have invested a lot of money in an uncomfortable worn down piece of crap.

I eventually want to have 2 cars in the family, both EVs.
One of them with 200+ mile range and seats 4 people.
One of them with 100+ mile range, seats 2 or more, for commuting and city driving.

But since I bought the Roadster first, and it can only fit the 2nd role, I'm unlikely to get a Leaf because it cant fit the 1st role due to range.
The only thing on the horizon that can do that is the Model S, so I am waiting for it.

If the Leaf had come to market at the same time as the Roadster, I might have ended up with a Leaf.
The Leaf + Model S would have been a fine combination, but the Roadster + Model S will be more fun.

 

[JRP3]

I haven't heard of a single conversion with a 100-mile range that comes close to the $32k base price before the tax break. Lead acid is cheap but difficult to scale up to 100 miles, and they tend to wear out in a few years and yield much lower range in cold weather. People are getting conversions to go 100 miles with lithium ion, but those conversions run $50k plus the car.

What's the best price you've seen for a conversion that has gets 80 to 100 miles of range in mild winter weather (30 to 40 degrees F) with batteries that can be reasonably expected to last 5 years?

My conversion has done 50 miles this summer and I have not yet optimized efficiency, (aero mods, LRR tires). I have around $14K, in it, $4500 of that in LiFePO4 batteries from SE/CALB that should easily last more than 5 years. I could add another $6K in batteries and probably match the Leaf range and still be cheaper. Remember, I'm talking about home conversions, not done by a shop.

 

[richkae]

To compare against a conversion you should apply most of the same rules to compare against an ICE.
To try to find reasonable ICE cars to compare against the Leaf you need to find ones that match as many criteria as possible:
1) passenger volume: head room, leg room, shoulder room front and back
2) cargo volume
3) features: airbags, AC, ABS, traction control, navigation, sound
4) meaningful performance 30-50mph, 50-70mph, 0-60mph, top speed of 90mph+
5) ride quality, handling, responsiveness
6) the intangibles of build quality, fit and finish, luxury and comfort
( I am still trying to figure out exactly which ICE cars match up with a Leaf, which is difficult to do without seeing one and evaluating 5&6 )

I would bet that most conversions under $25k are inferior to the Leaf in many of these areas.

Your SE/CALB LiFePO4 batteries will last for more than 5 years, but Nissan warrantees theirs for 10.
Even if we assume they fail right at 10, are the $10500 of SE/CALB batteries going to last 10 years? If not you need to factor in the partial cost of a 2nd set.

 

[EVNow]

My conversion has done 50 miles this summer and I have not yet optimized efficiency, (aero mods, LRR tires). I have around $14K, in it, $4500 of that in LiFePO4 batteries from SE/CALB that should easily last more than 5 years. I could add another $6K in batteries and probably match the Leaf range and still be cheaper. Remember, I'm talking about home conversions, not done by a shop.

That $14k doesn't include a new donor car, right ?

 

[EVNow]

Your SE/CALB LiFePO4 batteries will last for more than 5 years, but Nissan warrantees theirs for 10.

You mean 8, not 10.

LiFePO4 should last as much as Leaf's - is the BMS is good.

I am still trying to figure out exactly which ICE cars match up with a Leaf, which is difficult to do without seeing one and evaluating 5&6

All sizes are very close to Prius. I'd think fit&finish will be close as well - apparently Nissan is targeting Prius in every aspect - including price.

 

[JRP3]

I would bet that most conversions under $25k are inferior to the Leaf in many of these areas.

I agree completely. Remember, my original statement was at $25K the Leaf starts to compete with the better, longer range home conversions. In other words if I were thinking of doing a 80-100 mile range home conversion the Leaf would have to be a consideration, unless I was looking to convert a specific vehicle for a specific reason. You could easily spend more on a home conversion than on a Leaf.

 

[JRP3]

That $14k doesn't include a new donor car, right ?

No not a new car of course.

 

[EVNow]

No not a new car of course.

Then you can't use $14K.

You could easily spend more on a home conversion than on a Leaf.

What we are saying is - you will have to spend quite a bit more than Leaf on a home conversion to get a comparable EV.

 

[tomsax]

Remember, I'm talking about home conversions, not done by a shop.

By this I assume you mean you're not adding in the cost of labor. It's not fair to compare two cars simply by cost if one of them rolls off the dealer lot ready to drive and the other requires a lot of expert labor to build yourself.

 

[vfx]

There are also the tricked out things the new EVs are offering that for the home builder would be difficult to duplicate.
I phone, Nav with EV stations listed, driving profiles, regen settings digital readouts of car conditions. etc, etc.

You would have to be a really smart person to add these types of features. That type of smarts would have to be a tiny tiny tiny percent of EV building population -which is already a tiny tiny percent of the home car building population which is a tiny tiny percent of the car owning population. Let's just say 98 guys and a one girl.

If you were that smart you just might see the LEAF as the wiser choice for time and money. Nissan's pricing has killed the old Toyota RAV 4 and virtually all home built daily drive EVs. Anyone building the car now is not in it to save money. Just looking for a cool project to fill time and bragging rights. Which is cool too.

 

[JRP3]

Then you can't use $14K.
What we are saying is - you will have to spend quite a bit more than Leaf on a home conversion to get a comparable EV.

Depends on what you mean as comparable. Potentially you could get a nicer used vehicle than a Leaf, still in good shape but with a blown motor or something for a couple thousand and convert it, ending up with a nicer overall vehicle. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's better.

 

[JRP3]

By this I assume you mean you're not adding in the cost of labor. It's not fair to compare two cars simply by cost if one of them rolls off the dealer lot ready to drive and the other requires a lot of expert labor to build yourself.

I cut and split my own firewood for free, is it not fair to compare the cost of that to paying for firewood, or heating oil? You either do something yourself or pay someone else for the convenience of doing it for you. Bottom line is out of pocket cost. I like the exercise of splitting wood and I like the challenge of doing a conversion, so I don't have to "pay myself" for the labor, I already get something out of it beyond the finished product. As I said, the Leaf does bring into question the idea of a home conversion. In the past there was no choice, now there is.

 

[JRP3]

There are also the tricked out things the new EVs are offering that for the home builder would be difficult to duplicate.
I phone, Nav with EV stations listed, driving profiles, regen settings digital readouts of car conditions. etc, etc.

You would have to be a really smart person to add these types of features. That type of smarts would have to be a tiny tiny tiny percent of EV building population -which is already a tiny tiny percent of the home car building population which is a tiny tiny percent of the car owning population. Let's just say 98 guys and a one girl.

To be fair there are thousands of us. There are also DIY apps for smart phones that do much of what you are suggesting. Truth is the DIY crowd is a bit more advanced than you give us credit for. Personally I like simple and have little use for bells and whistles, but even I have digital readouts of motor RPMs, motor temp, voltage, amps controller temps, battery temps, amp hours used, SOC, and KWs.