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Nissan Leaf

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#481
JRP3 said:
As I said, the Leaf does bring into question the idea of a home conversion. In the past there was no choice, now there is.
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I totally agree with that statement, but not what you said originally:

JRP3 said:
I agree. With the $7k tax credit a Leaf starts to compete with the better longer range home conversions. And it comes with a warranty.
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That says that you can have a comparable home built EV for noticeably less that $25,000. Without some qualification, that's just not true. You may value your time at zero, which is fair if you enjoy the work, but you can't make a blanket statement to that effect. Claiming that you can home build an EV that will compete with a Nissan Leaf in desirability to the average consumer is a much stronger claim that requires compelling evidence to be credible.

JRP3 said:
To be fair there are thousands of us. There are also DIY apps for smart phones that do much of what you are suggesting. Truth is the DIY crowd is a bit more advanced than you give us credit for. Personally I like simple and have little use for bells and whistles, but even I have digital readouts of motor RPMs, motor temp, voltage, amps controller temps, battery temps, amp hours used, SOC, and KWs.
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I have tremendous respect for the home builders and I'm well aware of what can be done. I've raced my Roadster against White Zombie on the 1/4 mile and been soundly beaten. That was mildly interesting when White Zombie was turning in times in the low 12's and high 11's. Watching White Zombie turn in a 10.400 ET on the 1/4 mile last month, knowing they are just getting started tuning the current setup, gave me a whole new level of respect for what DIY EVs can do.

A few of us Roadster owners in Seattle are so enthusiastic about what John Wayland is doing with White Zombie that we are funding a new charging breakout box so that we can double the EV charging capacity at Portland International Raceway for the NEDRA Nationals on September 10-11. We are going to be making our third trek down to Portland this year to support his efforts and help him attract more media attention.

In my opinion, John Wayland, along with Otmar Ebenhoech, as representatives of the huge EV builder community are EV rock stars right up there with Chelsea Sexton, Chris Paine, JB Straubel, and Martin Eberhard.
 
#482
tomsax said:
I totally agree with that statement, but not what you said originally:

That says that you can have a comparable home built EV for noticeably less that $25,000. Without some qualification, that's just not true. You may value your time at zero, which is fair if you enjoy the work, but you can't make a blanket statement to that effect. Claiming that you can home build an EV that will compete with a Nissan Leaf in desirability to the average consumer is a much stronger claim that requires compelling evidence to be credible.
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I think you read far more into my statement than was there.
I agree. With the $7k tax credit a Leaf starts to compete with the better longer range home conversions. And it comes with a warranty.
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I never said "noticeably less than $25K. Implied is that for around the same money you can do a similar range home conversion, and since the Leaf is already a finished product it obviously has an advantage, and it's brand new. I also said it comes with a warranty, which is obviously something no home conversion will have. However, some people think the Leaf is really ugly and would find a quality home conversion with similar range much more appealing. In comparing it to conversions I was also not thinking of the average consumer, (as they won't be doing a home conversion), but of the conversion crowd. To sum up, I've kicked around the idea of doing a longer range conversion in the future, instead maybe I'll get a Leaf someday. I still might need to do my own because I don't think the Leaf is going to be for sale in my area.
 
#483
I just took a test drive of the Nissan Leaf. If I have some time I'll edit and post some video of it later. Here are some of my impressions:

* Drives like a real car, not like a glorified golf cart.
* Has some pretty good pep and handles nicely.
* Nice and quiet.
* Felt pretty solid and good quality. Didn't feel like a cheap car.
* Had a lot of nice features such as two driving modes, detalied range projections with and without air conditioning on, air conditioner was strong (a must in Hawaii).
* The trunk is small. No way a golf bag fits back there unless you fold a seat down.
* Had a small solar panel above the hatchback that tops off the 12V battery that feeds the memory, and other auxillary functions.
* Can preheat/cool the car from an iphone app. While preheating/cooling the car, the power comes from the main battery, but if it is plugged in to a socket, the energy is pretty much a push (i.e. battery is being replenished as fast as the HVAC is taking).

All in all, I was impressed. I think it would sell roughly for $34k and with $12k ($7.5k federal and $4.5k Hawaii state) in tax credits the car nets down to $22k. Considering the 8 year/100k mile warranty I think it is a good value. I would place an order for one if it fit my lifestyle, which it doesn't. A very solid car.

My test drive made me excited about the Leaf, but it really isn't for me. It, however, made me even more excited about my Tesla S reservation. If the Leaf is this good, I can't wait to get my Model S which should be even better.
 
#484
JRP3 said:
I cut and split my own firewood for free, is it not fair to compare the cost of that to paying for firewood, or heating oil? You either do something yourself or pay someone else for the convenience of doing it for you. Bottom line is out of pocket cost. I like the exercise of splitting wood and I like the challenge of doing a conversion, so I don't have to "pay myself" for the labor, I already get something out of it beyond the finished product. As I said, the Leaf does bring into question the idea of a home conversion. In the past there was no choice, now there is.
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That is different. Cutting and splitting your own firewood is not as difficult as doing a conversion. I would be able to cut my own firewood if I had to, but there is no way I am going to be able to do my own EV conversion. With a pre-built anything, there is a bunch that you don't have to do that you might not take into account because you enjoy that. Cars are a perfect example because people don't have to worry about parts breaking down or glitches. Especially with a conversion to an EV where you can have things go wrong and then have to spend anywhere from minutes to hours diagnosing. With a pre-built EV from Nissan or Tesla, they have done all that work and even if something comes up, it is them that has to find the problem. A lot of people just aren't going to want to deal with that on there own, which is why your comparison of cutting and splittig your own firewood is not a good example. I build my own computers (mainly because I prefer to be able to put in what I want) but I deal with having to trouble shoot problems myself and not have a number to call and have somebody help me.

-Shark2k
 
#485
It's all varying degrees of the same thing Shark. I know people working on EV conversions who actually could not cut and split their own firewood because of physical issues. I split my own firewood, build my own computers, and do my own conversions. As with your computers, when my EV acts up I won't have to wait for a dealer to fix it. Truth is EV's really are not that complicated.
 
#486
The facts that the big manufacturers are coming out with affordable EVs and pushing all the technology to improve will change the conversion landscape.

There are lots of people who like to build custom cars, restore old/classic cars, work on their own cars, modify their cars.
Few of these decisions are about getting a car that has the utility you need for the least cost.

Hopefully soon the decision on how to make an old car fast won't involve what V8 to put in, it will be trying to decide between AC and DC.
It won't happen because its the right thing to do. It will happen when the electrics are quicker and faster and comparable in price.

I'd love to have a classic car replica, my choice would be a Porsche 356 speedster ( EV ).
When an EV conversion competes on cost, reliability, complexity, utility with a new/rebuilt ICE powertrain it will be the road chosen.

I have no doubt that the electric drivetrain is vastly superior in all ways right now except for cost and weight.
The faster that improves, the more the expertise to convert will proliferate.

Of course the closed minded will cling to the smell of gasoline and the noise made by an ICE long past when it makes sense.
 
#488
I think the economy of scale with Leaf production will make dramatic changes.
Once they are making thousands of Leafs per month, the price of the parts will drop dramatically.
Nobody has ever mass produced EV drivetrain components.

Will people go to Nissan dealers and buy motors, inverters, controllers from the parts counter for their projects?
I don't think it will take long for the Nissan parts to be better and much cheaper than the typical EV parts used in conversions today.
There is no way something built in quantities of 100s per year can compete with something made 100,000s per year.
The motors will be so cheap, you could probably just use two.
I can imagine a pretty nice sports car made from two Leaf motors and controllers, or a pretty nice long range vehicle made from an entire Leaf drive with a bigger better battery.
 
#492
JRP3 said:
Dealers and OEMs aren't known for their competitive pricing on parts. The custom market will likely still be using other motors for a while, until Leaf's start hitting the junk yard. Start crashing them people, we're waiting :D
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(...I was going to say that when leaves[1] start hitting the junk yard, conversions will seem silly... but I hadn't thought of stripping a leaf to convert something else)

Can we call a truce on this yet?
Eventually (hopefully soon) the EV-to-homemade-EV ratio will be on par with the Auto-to-homemade-Auto ratio.

Homemaking an EV is expensive. and I've followed blogs where people have spent 100's of hours on a conversion only to give up. A used leaf with just a few years on it is likely to cost less than the parts for a conversion. I, for one, am willing to wait.

[1] Yes, I'm pluralizing it this way. I say Prii as well. I've said Jetti too, but only as a joke (it should be Jettae anyway)
 
#493
JRP3 said:
Depends on what you mean as comparable. Potentially you could get a nicer used vehicle than a Leaf, still in good shape but with a blown motor or something for a couple thousand and convert it, ending up with a nicer overall vehicle. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's better.
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Well, new is new. Ofcourse you can compare with the $15K residual Nissan has published at the end of the lease ;-)
 
#494
For those not following leaf closely - Nissan started taking "August Orders" yesterday and some "September orders" today. My ordering took less than 15 minutes from me selecting the accessories and submitting the request for quote to finally getting the quote and accepting it. $100 below invoice feels good on such a breakthrough car.
 
#497
This is also interesting:

If your Leaf needs feeding on a longer journey, you can give it a "quick charge" – typically a half-hour blast at 400 volts and 32 amps – which will take the charge back up to 80 per cent
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Those numbers don't match those of the TEPCO chargers but do fit the specs of the initial implementation of Mennekes. If the journalist is reporting what he has been told, does this mean that EU Leafs are getting the Mennekes fast charger (as their partners Renault have been vocal in supporting already)?


Of course, his numbers don't make sense as half an hour of 400V 32A isn't going to fill your battery to 80% unless it was starting at 40%...
 
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