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Nissan releases heat tolerant battery and replacement battery cost

Discussion in 'Battery Discussion' started by shrink, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. shrink

    shrink Member

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    I have some firsthand experience with this. I live in Phoenix and had 2011 and 2012 LEAFs. Both lost 15% capacity after 10 months. The 2012 was down about 25% after 2 years. Heat was clearly an issue without a TMS.

    Today, Nissan released their heat tolerant battery chemistry and announced a cost for a battery replacement:

    My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

    Anyone think Tesla might release a heat-tolerant battery that might make a TMS unnecessary and perhaps lower the cost?

    I wonder how heat tolerant Nissan's new battery chemistry actually is.
     
  2. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    No.
    More "heat-tolerant" battery will always have less capacity than less heat tolerant battery.

    Capacity is king. Capacity after 10 years of service is emperor.
     
  3. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    If they could do it and lower cost, I think they would. But, to paraphrase JB Straubel, when you do that, you're just moving the problem to the cell. For the foreseeable future, a large battery with TMS should always work out cheaper than a large battery without a TMS.

    Well, I'd hazard a guess that some Phoenix area owners could find out within a few years.

    Still, as long as this is unsubsidized pricing it's good news and should make people understand that Tesla's pricing claims are very realistic.
     
  4. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    For those who don't want to click and parse the info...


     
  5. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    My 2011 LEAF with about 28K miles still shows all capacity bars on the dash and range is not much different from when I got the car new over 3 years ago... So I am not sweating a replacement battery (yet)... But it is nice to know there is finally an option for owners in case their (out of warranty) battery starts to become a problem.


    They insist you turn in an old battery to buy the new, so conversion people aren't invited to buy these packs.
     
  6. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

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    $5500 for a brand new 24 kWh pack ain't bad. How does Tesla get away with charging $42000 for owners that want to upgrade their A pack? That's $500 per kW vs Nissan's $230 per kW.
     
  7. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Part of that difference might be installation fees. And does that $42k include the core return?
     
  8. gavine

    gavine Petrol Head turned EV Enthusiast

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    The Nissan core return is only worth $1,000.
     
  9. Canuck

    Canuck Active Member

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    When I looked into buying a Leaf as a second family car the lack of TMS was a real concern. I ended up buying one only because I live in the Pacific Northwest, where we rarely get temperatures in the 80's, and when we do, it's not for very long. I don't think the Leaf is suited to anywhere with a hot climate since I read a lot about loss of capacity from owners in the southern states. When you only have 80 miles at best to start with (charging to 80%) the loss of even a small amount of battery capacity is a concern. Nissan had to deal with this concern with battery chemistry since it's much easier to do that then make new models with TMS which would basically be admitting a defect with their older models -- and it really is a defect if you own one of these cars in a hot climate -- from what I have read from those owners with loss of capacity over just one or two years.
     
  10. Teo

    Teo Banned

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  11. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    This "heat tolerant" version was supposed to address that. It remains be seen if it does though (as when Nissan launched the first version they were pretty confident that they didn't need a TMS and we all know how well that turned out).
     
  12. riceuguy

    riceuguy Member

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    I hope Tesla eventually offers a battery replacement financing option...that would be pretty cool. Perhaps 3-4 more years down the road...
     
  13. swaltner

    swaltner Member

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    The announcement linked in the first post in this thread says that Nissan will finance the replacement battery for about $100/month.

    As someone that purchased a 2013 Leaf SV, I'm pretty excited about this announcement. When I purchased 11 months ago, I knew about the battery issues and that there wasn't a way to buy a replacement battery at the time. This price point is right around where I was hoping that Nissan would be. So much better than what the naysayers said it would be.
     
  14. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    This is probably the wrong thread (sorry mods) but I figure the folks that know are probably reading this thread...

    For a production vehicle, what's the most significant degradation that's been seen so far (any make/model) and in what timeframe? As an example, 75% (!) degradation on Model S would still give you ~66 rated miles which is still quite useful.
     
  15. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I recall reading about a 50% degradation in one year in the Leaf in the Leaf forums. I believe that the most common rate of degradation on the Leaf is about 25% per year in hot climates.
     
  16. omgwtfbyobbq

    omgwtfbyobbq Member

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    Degradation also tends to be exponential, so owners usually don't see the same drop in absolute capacity sequentially. The exception to this is that higher discharges are more likely to depart from the smooth exponential decline in capacity at some point (the knee on page 9 of this pdf).

    http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/61037.pdf
     
  17. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    What does DOD mean on that pdf?
     
  18. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    DOD means "depth of discharge". Basically the Max SOC - Min SOC that the cells sees. For example if max SOC is 100% and min SOC is 50%, that would be 100-50 = 50% DOD.
     
  19. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    #19 brianman, Jun 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
    Sorry. Let me clarify. What's the most seen (and reported) total (not just in one year)? I never buy a car with the intent to sell it in one year. For me it's typically 11 years.

    I realize we don't have a lot of EV history to work with yet.
     
  20. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    Ok, thank you.
     

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