NRMA- why everyone is talking Tesla

[baillies]

An interesting article from NRMA, hopefully there will be more next issue. Also several mentions of other hybrid, PHEV, and the i3 in the issue.

 

[meloccom]

I got my paper copy of the Open Road and this article is part of a group about Alternative Fuel vehicles.
No Tesla in the Title page and a similar feature on the Hyundai iX35 Fool Cell saying that with its single refuelling location at Hyundai HQ in Sydney that this is the future of motoring.:cursing:
Gee I thought the NRMA had more sense, looks like a strongly worded letter to the editor of Open Road is in order.

-edit-

Oh sorry did I say 'Fool Cell', silly me Freudian slip.:smile:

 

[WhiteStar]

I got my paper copy of the Open Road and this article is part of a group about Alternative Fuel vehicles.
No Tesla in the Title page and a similar feature on the Hyundai iX35 Fool Cell saying that with its single refuelling location at Hyundai HQ in Sydney that this is the future of motoring.:cursing:
Gee I thought the NRMA had more sense, looks like a strongly worded letter to the editor of Open Road is in order.

-edit-

Oh sorry did I say 'Fool Cell', silly me Freudian slip.:smile:

Yes hydrogen is the ‘zero emission’ alternative for people who regard plug in electric vehicles as green hippy voodoo and who will insist on visiting the premises of a multinational company in order to be regularly and loyally gouged for their transportation requirements.

 

[baillies]

Yes Meloccom, I started with the paper copy the read on the iPad version and was going to post that I was very disappointed they ignored Tesla. Looks like the person who wrote the main piece did not know about Tesla, I think the editor should have done a better job. Like the fool cell, cannot see I will ever own one, the thought of having hydrogen exploding in my garage is not appealing.

 

[Cebe]

Interesting they'd have a photo of a LHD car...

 

[Keiron]

Its interesting to note that the vast majority of people dont understand that a hydrogen based fuel cell chemically recombines to liberate electrons to run the propulsion system on electricity.
We already have the car including propulsion system- whether a hydrogen concept is ever economically viability or not - theoretically we could retrofit the H2 cell in place of our current lithium based chemistry.
Cant see it happening any time soon. In the meantime we all have the Best of the Best there is- and LOVING IT!

 

[Dborn]

Keiron - i agree. But, more viable might be flow batteries with super capacitors. A lot of that tech has already been done. Redflow does have flow batteries for commercial use out there, but they are horribly expensive. Forgetting cost, and forgetting economics, technically they probably are the best suited for solar storage right now. If something goes wrong, they can be serviced and just the faulty part replaced.
But, on your topic of fuel cells, what about the energy to make the hydrogen from fossil fuel sources in the first instance? Sure, there is a lot of research going on to produce hydrogen from water using a "photosynthesis" type mechanism. It is a long way from reality yet.
So, fuel cells are still "burning" fossil fuels!!

 

[GregHudson]

So, fuel cells are still "burning" fossil fuels!!

Maybe, maybe not. It depends where the energy to create the hydrogen is sourced. e.g.
The Icelandic Govt reckons they have the ability to become the Saudi Arabia of the hydrogen world because of their virtually unlimited supply of geothermal energy.
They 'say' a full size plant would only cost a few billion (which I doubt - just look at the cost involved in creating the NW Shelf gas field).
GH

 

[Mark E]

Maybe, maybe not. It depends where the energy to create the hydrogen is sourced. e.g.
The Icelandic Govt reckons they have the ability to become the Saudi Arabia of the hydrogen world because of their virtually unlimited supply of geothermal energy.
They 'say' a full size plant would only cost a few billion (which I doubt - just look at the cost involved in creating the NW Shelf gas field).
GH

Semi-related regarding costs renewables vs fossil - the US spends around $US500B per year on direct military support in the middle east - maintaining their fuel supply. They buy $US52B of oil. So 10x the cost of oil goes to securing it - effectively a massive subsidy. Imagine if half of that was spent on renewable research instead - $US250B p.a. would get them to 100% clean in no time flat.

 

[Cebe]

One advantage, and I wish it wasn't, of something like hydrogen (or oil today) is ability to deliver it to remote locations. Quite a lot of upfront cost to wire things up to deliver electricity from big power plants to those same locations. Same for exports - somebody like Iceland that can generate a lot of electricity cheaply can sell it perhaps more efficiently (and to farther reaching places) by storing that electricity as hydrogen and shipping it in giant (extremely safe and completely non-flamable, what could possibly go wrong) container ships.

The answer to that could be local solar+batteries, but Iceland isn't going to lobby for that...

 

[ecarfan]

?...somebody like Iceland that can generate a lot of electricity cheaply can sell it perhaps more efficiently (and to farther reaching places) by storing that electricity as hydrogen and shipping it in giant (extremely safe and completely non-flamable, what could possibly go wrong) container ships.

Hydrogen is not an energy storage medium. It is an inefficient way to produce electricity by passing it across a fuel cell. There are multiple threads about that on TMC.

Batteries store energy.

 

[TesAus]

Hydrogen is not an energy storage medium. It is an inefficient way to produce electricity by passing it across a fuel cell. There are multiple threads about that on TMC.

Batteries store energy.

This is from high school science many years ago so could well be wrong, but.....

In creating the hydrogen you are using energy to split the hydrogen from oxygen. In passing the hydrogen through the fuel cell that energy is released as the hydrogen recombines with oxygen. Therefore you are essentially storing the energy by the change in state of the hydrogen?

As an analogy if you carry a cannon ball up a tall building it is now storing potential energy. That energy is released when you drop it out of the window and it converts to kinetic energy. The cannon ball could therefore be an energy storage device?

 

[ggr]

This is from high school science many years ago so could well be wrong, but.....

In creating the hydrogen you are using energy to split the hydrogen from oxygen. In passing the hydrogen through the fuel cell that energy is released as the hydrogen recombines with oxygen. Therefore you are essentially storing the energy by the change in state of the hydrogen?

As an analogy if you carry a cannon ball up a tall building it is now storing potential energy. That energy is released when you drop it out of the window and it converts to kinetic energy. The cannon ball could therefore be an energy storage device?

You could pump water back up to a dam, and then later release it again and generate electricity from it... just a soft kind of cannonball.

Yes, since energy is mostly conserved outside the quantum realm, everything could be called "storage". But for me, somewhere between "I do something to create the storage medium (hydrogen or battery or pumping water back up the hill)" and "Gee, I found this black stuff in the ground and I can burn it" there's a boundary between storage and generation. It's subjective really, since that black stuff is just storing energy from the sun gathered over many millennia millions of years ago.

 

[Cebe]

I don't really care what we call it, storage, medium, delivery mechanism, you want to get the electricity to the end user. I can drive a Tesla that I charge by cranking up a diesel generator in the back yard. Sure, it's a battery car, but the electricity did come from diesel (very old sunshine, as was pointed out.) Or I can charge the battery car with electricity that came from a fuel cell (external to the car.) Or I can have a fuel cell in the car, and carry the hydrogen around. Or I can have a short wire run to my roof and charge with fresh sunshine. Or a long wire running to a power plant that does something to create that electricity and send it to me.

 

[lonewolf313]

Another interesting video posted around a week ago from You Tube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UziAXis9yg

It starts off with the history of electric cars.

Then shows Tesla history, where it is currently, market share and value in the automotive sector and where is it heading in the future.

Length - approx 15 min

 

[ZTrekus]

Another interesting video posted around a week ago from You Tube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UziAXis9yg

It starts off with the history of electric cars.

Then shows Tesla history, where it is currently, market share and value in the automotive sector and where is it heading in the future.

Length - approx 15 min

Thanks lonewolf313, I really loved that video and will send it on to my inlaws who are a little sceptical about my purchase...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I don't really care what we call it, storage, medium, delivery mechanism, you want to get the electricity to the end user. I can drive a Tesla that I charge by cranking up a diesel generator in the back yard. Sure, it's a battery car, but the electricity did come from diesel (very old sunshine, as was pointed out.) Or I can charge the battery car with electricity that came from a fuel cell (external to the car.) Or I can have a fuel cell in the car, and carry the hydrogen around. Or I can have a short wire run to my roof and charge with fresh sunshine. Or a long wire running to a power plant that does something to create that electricity and send it to me.

A wire that people already have because they use electricity for lots of other stuff. What's more, electricity is most scalable method for supplying the world's energy needs in a clean, sustainable way. The more you do with electricity, the less need there is for supplies of energy dense fuel, which increases the possibly of supplying those needs with biofuels and synfuels.

 

[GregHudson]

One advantage, and I wish it wasn't, of something like hydrogen (or oil today) is ability to deliver it to remote locations. Quite a lot of upfront cost to wire things up to deliver electricity from big power plants to those same locations. Same for exports - somebody like Iceland that can generate a lot of electricity cheaply can sell it perhaps more efficiently (and to farther reaching places) by storing that electricity as hydrogen and shipping it in giant (extremely safe and completely non-flamable, what could possibly go wrong) container ships.

The answer to that could be local solar+batteries, but Iceland isn't going to lobby for that...

Local solar + batteries is really the only logical choice. It's not practical to run power lines long distance for just a few users.
GH

 

[lonewolf313]

Thanks lonewolf313, I really loved that video and will send it on to my inlaws who are a little sceptical about my purchase...

Hey ZTrekus Keep your in-laws guessing at your new vehicle purchase then blow their minds with a "Ludicrous Speed" test ride followed by a roadtrip to lets say Albury and back - free of cost - courtesy of the Supercharger network which should be built by then. Fingers Crossed

 

[Dborn]

You mean free of ongoing cost. Don't forget, supercharging has been pre paid for.