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Nuclear power

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Then there is the question of waste (not in my back yard) and the potential of terrorist use of said waste. Why create these potential and future disasters? I believe that we are on the cusp of cheap, sustainable, and clean energy. Solar is taking hold, wind works (and is working) well in remote areas, nuclear fusion may actually become a reality in the near future. Why not focus on this kind of energy production instead of creating new nuclear (fission) power plants?
 
Hundreds of stillbirths both human and cattle (beyond average) resulted from Three Mile Island in a band stretching from the Midwest well into Ontario. A result usually disregarded in historical reviews but certainly important to those affected.
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The one acronym response: NIMBY :)
If forced to choose - would you rather have a coal powered plant that spews cancer causing pollutants into your air and the runoff, or a micronuclear plant that could run for decades without any pollution or incidents?

I'm really not a nuclear proponent or advocate and I'm thankful for the links posted here so I can learn more. Both sides seem to use hyperbole and exaggeration, making it difficult to get accurate data on the dangers and risks and injuries.

It seems like it could be said that nuclear has the potential to severely harm people within x miles of a plant. But coal destroys the planet as a whole with global warming. Maybe it's just picking the lesser of two evils.

I wish we would see renewables on the scale needed to put both out of commission.
 
I consider myself super liberal but no pollution, 435 nuclear power reactors worldwide and only one accident in thirty years...

How many accidents have there been at solar plants or windmills that affected anyone outside the immediate area? How many batteries have caused issues for more than a couple of plant workers?

Nuclear power may make sense when compared to coal plants of the past, but we don't need to embrace those risks anymore. Coal plants can burn wood pellets, and we can build a grid that mostly depends on solar and wind and hydro power if we choose to.

The technology is there, the expense while substantial is manageable. The only question is whether we have the will and political system to make it happen.
Walter
 
Hundreds of stillbirths both human and cattle (beyond average) resulted from Three Mile Island in a band stretching from the Midwest well into Ontario. A result usually disregarded in historical reviews but certainly important to those affected.
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None of which was able to be documented. The radiation even 1 mile from the plan was no different than background radiation and far less exposure than one flight across the country in a plane.
 
If forced to choose - would you rather have a coal powered plant that spews cancer causing pollutants into your air and the runoff, or a micronuclear plant that could run for decades without any pollution or incidents?

I'm really not a nuclear proponent or advocate and I'm thankful for the links posted here so I can learn more. Both sides seem to use hyperbole and exaggeration, making it difficult to get accurate data on the dangers and risks and injuries.

It seems like it could be said that nuclear has the potential to severely harm people within x miles of a plant. But coal destroys the planet as a whole with global warming. Maybe it's just picking the lesser of two evils.

I wish we would see renewables on the scale needed to put both out of commission.

I started calling solar companies the night of the earthquake/tsunami/nuclear disaster and got my
system installed within a few months, so I voted by getting renewables installed on my roof.
 
Without taking a side in the discussion, I think it's not about the number of accidents but about the combined effects of those accidents and the inherent risks of the technology.

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Fair enough - but we're looking at thousands of reactor-years and 1 accident. Doesn't that prove the risks are negligible?

Not at all
 
Without taking a side in the discussion, I think it's not about the number of accidents but about the combined effects of those accidents and the inherent risks of the technology.

I will take a side: In the fight between nuclear fission v.s. coal I will choose fission every time. In the fight of nuclear fission v.s. NG (gas) I will choose nuclear done well every time. In the fight nuclear v.s. solar or other renewables such as hydro (where applicable), wind (where applicable), geothermal (where applicable) I'll choose the renewable 90% of the time (except for special use cases). In the future when we get to choose between fusion and fission I'll choose fusion every time. And when we get to choose between termal fusion with neutron induced radioactivity v.s. non-thermal, dense plasma focus fusion bypassing the thermal part all togheter obviously I'll choose that.

But to return to the subject of safety/harm: the problem here is that with many of the fossil fueled forms of power generation the harm and destruction done is a continuous, linear fashion where as with nuclear fission it's binary: everything is fine most of the time and then very seldom you have some really big disaster. Of course over a long period of time the nuclear fission approach creates far less harm, probably by a magnitude of 1/100th or 1/1000th of the aggregated harm, but human psycology makes it hard for us to accept disasters. See for example this write-up: 4,000 Times as Many People Die Per Unit of Coal Energy as Per Unit of Nuclear Energy

Also, if someone's anti-nuclear argument is built around nuclear waste you really need to get educated. It's not such a big problem as most would have it be (fear mongering again). Yes it needs to be stored safely but it's not that big of a problem. What really is a big problem though is the fact that the world is still running extremely inefficient 1st and 2nd generation nuclear fission plants that only extract a very small percentage of the potential energy of the uranium yeilding all this radioactive waste. Now if the politics would just have allowed for the natural progression in to 3rd and 4th generation plants 20-30 years ago, when they should have come online, with on-site breeders and fast reactors there would be no waste problem and we might not have been where we are today with global warning. But the powers that were and the powers that be wanted it otherwise. I just wish for once someone would listen to the engineers, physicists and scientists...
 
Can't get the full video for free, but you can at least get part of the episode here:


I recommend you take the time to get on Netflix (at least they used to have it) or some other such service and watch the whole episode of Penn and Teller Bull****: "Nukes, Hybrids & Lesbians". Because they talk about a lot of the fear mongering surround nuclear power and in a very funny fashion.

Anyway, there are newer forms of Fission which would have little to no waste once you take recycling into account. I know LFTR is like less than 1% waste since just about all of the byproducts have practical (and actually desperately needed) applications.

That all being said, fusion is really starting to look promising in light of recent successes so I hope to see that replace everything that is non-renewable in the near future!
 
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I consider myself super liberal but no pollution, 435 nuclear power reactors worldwide and only one accident in thirty years...

You're completely missing the point as to why nuclear power is dying... so here's a 'one-sentence' reason for why fission will probably die in <40 years.

Producing 160TWh with solar PV now costs ~50% less than producing 160TWh from nuclear power.

The 3 main reasons the worlds nuclear fleet is shrinking is cost, cost and cost.
 
You're completely missing the point as to why nuclear power is dying... so here's a 'one-sentence' reason for why fission will probably die in <40 years.

Producing 160TWh with solar PV now costs ~50% less than producing 160TWh from nuclear power.

The 3 main reasons the worlds nuclear fleet is shrinking is cost, cost and cost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source
Coal $95.60 / MWh
Nuclear $96.10 / MWh
PV Solar $130.00 / MWh
It's much closer than I expected (I thought PV would be 5-10x the cost) but doesn't exactly jive with your numbers.
 
It's much closer than I expected (I thought PV would be 5-10x the cost) but doesn't exactly jive with your numbers.

You have to look at the source, the type of install and the location;

Your data is derived from a 2013 report which means that the numbers for that report were likely compiled in 2012... the cost of Solar has been falling ~12-20% annually.

Those $/MWh figures are for Germany which receives significantly less sunlight than most places where people live.

I've often wondered where exactly how some of these numbers are calculated... Last March I helped install a 10kW(13kW DC) system on a friends house that cost $18k($13k after FTC). With the drop in PV costs I could install the same system today for ~$15k ($11k after FTC). The system has produced >16MWh since March and should produce on average ~20MWh/yr for at least the next 20 years.

So the 20 year levelized cost of power will be $15k / 400MWh = $37.5/MWh; The system will likely continue producing much longer...

Compare that to the fiasco at VC summer...
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2014-10-02/price-tag-for-sc-nuclear-plant-could-grow-by-1b

Adding to the woes of the nuclear industry is the fact that a (high capital cost / low operating cost) source like nuclear is the WORST choice to fill in the shrinking supply gaps left by renewables. A nuclear power plant is only marginally cost competitive of it's on-line 90% of the time... something that will become increasingly impossible as more and more people generate their own cheap power when the sun is shining...

1401-ERM%20fig1.jpg


Nuclear power is a lot of things... flexible ain't one of them... The only thing nuclear power will be a good source for is stranded capital...
 
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The Duck Curve is something of a Rorschach test. Some see it as an argument against nuclear (as in nwdiver's post), whilst others see it as an argument for limiting solar. FWIW, the CAISO sees it as a need for adding a whole lot of resources that can collectively increase output by 13,000 MW in three hours, preferably from a starting point of 0. That is really hard and expensive, which is why CAISO's put out an RFP for a huge lot of storage.
 
The Duck Curve is something of a Rorschach test. Some see it as an argument against nuclear (as in nwdiver's post), whilst others see it as an argument for limiting solar. FWIW, the CAISO sees it as a need for adding a whole lot of resources that can collectively increase output by 13,000 MW in three hours, preferably from a starting point of 0. That is really hard and expensive, which is why CAISO's put out an RFP for a huge lot of storage.

I'm not sure calling it a 'Rorschach test' is really accurate... we all see the same thing; 'If we don't limit Solar PV then nuclear WILL die'... the question is; Do we really want to limit renewables to give nuclear a chance?

The unfortunate fact is that high levels of renewables... ~20% render nuclear power cost prohibitive to build and ~40% cost prohibitive to operate. I don't know of many people that want to limit renewables so that nuclear can live...

I would like nothing better than to see every fossil fuel burning plant replaced with a nuclear plant but that's a fantasy. Utilities rarely replace existing generation, the cheapest kWh comes from the power plant they built 20 years ago. If you want to displace dirty power with clean power the most likely place for that to happen is on YOUR side of the meter.
 
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When I used to intern at a particle accelerator as part of my nuclear physics training many years ago it seemed the scientists consensus that fusion would be a 2035-2050 thing and fission was always seen as a dirty ugly messy transition technology. Back then the urgency of the carbon situation wasn't even so well understood although every educated person realized running on fossils wasn't sustainable. And newer gen slow burn reactors were just speculations.

The risks and costs go beyond documented powerplant failure, basically it is a brittle and power concentrating (as in political /economic) technology. Contrast to solar that encourages organic, self reliant deployment+supply+waste chain.
My personal stance is that today we are in a literal pick your poison problem, and we don't know whether we are equipped (tech, politically, mentally) to deal with either.
But the debate will have to be accelerated- Everything is relative but the speed of light and a bunch of other important things like the carbon in our atmosphere.
 
The Duck Curve is something of a Rorschach test. Some see it as an argument against nuclear (as in nwdiver's post), whilst others see it as an argument for limiting solar. FWIW, the CAISO sees it as a need for adding a whole lot of resources that can collectively increase output by 13,000 MW in three hours, preferably from a starting point of 0. That is really hard and expensive, which is why CAISO's put out an RFP for a huge lot of storage.
And DSM. What was that saying? A negawatt is worth than a megawatt or something? A peak negawatt is likely very valuable.
 
And DSM. What was that saying? A negawatt is worth than a megawatt or something? A peak negawatt is likely very valuable.
Yes, provided that we've got "peak" defined correctly. Too often historic usage is enshrined in time-of-service rates; as the Duck Curve shows, many of those historical "peak" hours will probably have negative energy prices in the future. The real value will be in reducing the sharp run-up in consumption at sunset.

There's an awkward temporal line-up of California, too: sunset occurs at nearly the same minute across most of the coast, where most of the people live. E.g., today sunset is at 4:48 in San Diego, 4:50 in LA, and 4:58 in Oakland. By contrast, in the eastern/mid-Atlantic/mid-west markets, we have much more east-west diversity in the solar resource.

This talk of "negawatts" really underscores how poorly we price power. If consumers simply paid the current, 5-minute or hourly, price of power, and generators were simply paid that price, then everything would line up neatly. Instead we have "big" generators (>=10MW) seeing that real-time price, but retail tariffs burying it, both for purchases and injections.

And, I've managed to wander far from the nuke question. I'll offer this on that subject: nuclear plants see the actual prices in the market, based on actual scarcity or surplus. Rooftop solar doesn't. If rooftop solar did, my guess is that the economics would be much less attractive than it is today. Still better than building a nuke, but certainly not enough to trigger shutting down an existing, well-functioning nuke.
 
None of which was able to be documented. The radiation even 1 mile from the plan was no different than background radiation and far less exposure than one flight across the country in a plane.

Do you mean verified? Article I saw in Mother Earth News (I believe) showed mapped plume of extra-normal still birth occurrences, both human and cattle, going north across the lake and continuing deep into Ontario. One mile from the point of release seems to be much too close to properly measure radiation. The wind flow that day from TMI apparently was due north for hundreds of miles. Ontario may have recorded stillbirths/spontaneous abortions better than PA or NY did, and would lack motivation to obfuscate data.
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