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Nuclear power

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Good point; modern gas-fired and nuclear power plants use a very modest amount of water. They use a "dry cooling" technique instead, basically using air instead of water as the cooling fluid. Water requirements are mostly for "make up" water in the system; even in a closed-loop system, some water is lost.

In decarbonizing electric generation, we need to keep moving forward on all potential technologies. First, there are important resource differences around the globe: solar in Seattle isn't a great option, wind isn't going to be a principal power source for New York City, and marine energy isn't going to be useful in Kansas. Second, until we get cheap and abundant energy storage, having power from diverse sources is important to ensure reliable deliveries.

There are now gas-fired plants that are air-cooled but this is likely cost prohibitive for large thermal plants like nuclear and coal. For every unit of electricity produced 3 units of heat are generated. On average ~0.4 gallons of water is evaporated for every kWh produced. Most parts of the world have been running a water deficit for decades using ground water as if it were an infinite resource...

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/33905.pdf

I am not sure I understand this statement in light of requlations that require (at least in California) thermal power plants to no longer use ocean water cooling. The second document refers to this, and I have already seen recent examples of power plant retrofits here in California.

I knew there were restrictions in regard to using seawater for cooling to protect marine life but I thought it was allowed if certain conditions were met... unlike rivers and lakes I don't see a power plant having a significant impact on the temperature of the ocean (unless you count the CO2 emitted from a coal plant :smile:)
 
I knew there were restrictions in regard to using seawater for cooling to protect marine life but I thought it was allowed if certain conditions were met... unlike rivers and lakes I don't see a power plant having a significant impact on the temperature of the ocean (unless you count the CO2 emitted from a coal plant :smile:)
In California, it's an absolute ban. The date the ban becomes effective is specific to the plant; they set them up on a rolling schedule so that everyone wouldn't be shut down at once. The concern isn't (so much) about the change in temperature but rather about the death of fish, larvae, etc. through entrapment and entrainment. The Morro Bay Power Plant (650 MW) when running at full capacity would use 150,000 gpm, raising the temperature by 10°F. The amount of waste heat is staggering, but it also means a huge potential for kill. Morro Bay was retired rather than face the massive cost of installing air cooling.

Air cooling is used on natural gas plants of up to 1,800 MW (Mystic 8 and 9, Everett MA), so I'm sure it's feasible for any size plant. Bloody expensive, though, both in capital costs and parasitic load.
 
I'm not sure if water usage would ever be a serious problem or not. Water used doesn't disappear, it stays on Earth, and this is a water planet after all. The question is, in what cases is the water usage from any particular source significantly and negatively affect other areas or systems that depend on that water. Hard question to answer. It might just be something you have to look at on a case by case basis.

Just to get an idea of how much water we are talking about, I did a little quick research. First, I checked to see what the typical water usage is for a thermal power station -- this includes various nuclear, coal, gas, and solar thermal plants. Gas tended to be lower, but the general high end for other sources was around 800 gallons per MWh.

Sources (intentionally using two sources that would tend to oppose each other, neither of which I would trust by themselves):
Cooling Power Plants | Power Plant Water Use for Cooling

How it Works: Water for Power Plant Cooling | Union of Concerned Scientists

I then took a look at how much electricity is used on Earth. It's a little old, but I found for 2008 the estimated worldwide use was 20,279 TWh. Might be a better source for this information, but I'll go with it.

Source:
Electric energy consumption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now go with the assumption as if all of that electricity was generated with thermal power stations. Calculating it out, the water usage would then be about 16,223,200,000,000 gallons per year, which is 14.7334 cubic miles of water. For comparison, Lake Michigan is said to be 1180 cubic miles in volume. That's about 1.25% the volume of Lake Michigan per year for all electricity on Earth to be generated by thermal power stations at 2008 electricity usage rates.

While that was a fun exercise, it doesn't tell us a whole lot. It's not obviously too much water usage, but it doesn't have to be obvious to be too much. I think you have to circle right back to looking at each power station on a case by case basis to determine if the water usage would be too much for the local environment, plus running some models on a more regional and global scale to try to determine if the combined change to the world water cycle will be impacted in ways that cause concern.
 
Water and electricity are linked. In Southern Califonia, we get almost all of our water from other places and I am told that electricity is a significant part of the transportation of that water.
Skotty's point about the effect on downstream users is an important one. The Colorado river is a trickle when it empties into the Gulf of California.
 
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The 800 gal/MWh seems incomplete. Later in that article, it cites a 1,600 MWe nuclear plant as using 90 cubic meters of water per second; that's 23,775 gal/s or 53,500 gal/MWh. That number is more in line with my experience with once-through-cooling plants.

True, I was assuming if all plants were recirculating or indirect wet cooling. The once-through variety is a different case that can't really be looked at in the same way. Is a once through using immensely more water or none at all? Or maybe it's a measure of increased evaporation from elevated water temperature. I'm not sure how to assess those, so I excluded them.
 
True, I was assuming if all plants were recirculating or indirect wet cooling. The once-through variety is a different case that can't really be looked at in the same way. Is a once through using immensely more water or none at all? Or maybe it's a measure of increased evaporation from elevated water temperature. I'm not sure how to assess those, so I excluded them.

Immensely more water. The temperature rise, although noticeable at about 10°F, doesn't have any important environmental effect when discharged into a large body of water (e.g. an ocean or Great Lake). But there's enough evidence that critters and eggs that get caught up in the water ("entrained") or smacked into the filter screens ("entrapped") have a poor survival rate, so California banned once-through cooling.
 
Immensely more water. The temperature rise, although noticeable at about 10°F, doesn't have any important environmental effect when discharged into a large body of water (e.g. an ocean or Great Lake). But there's enough evidence that critters and eggs that get caught up in the water ("entrained") or smacked into the filter screens ("entrapped") have a poor survival rate, so California banned once-through cooling.

Yes, but that immensely more water isn't used up, it is put back directly where it came from, so net, no water usage, actually.
 
Very interesting project by Thor Energy, they are executing formal tests with a Plutonium-Thorium fuel on a heavy water cooled reactor.
Why is this important:
1 - They use just enough Plutonium (combined with the absense of U-238) that its guaranteed to fission most of the plutonium (80 to 90% of the Pu gets fissioned depending on the mix of Plutonium and Thorium).
2 - Thorium is the only fertile nuclear fuel that can be breed efficiently in the thermal spectrum (98% of the world's operational reactors operate in the thermal spectrum, opposite of fast spectrum reactors). Thorium 232 makes Uranium 233 which then gets fissioned. U-233 is the least desirable fissionable material for nuclear weapons. Nuclear reactions are a game of probabilities, when a fissile material is hit with a neutron it has a probability of fissioning. Pu-239 has just a 2/3 probability of fission in the thermal spectrum, while U-233 has an 85% probability of fission. When Pu-239 doesn't fission, it becomes Pu-240 which leads to the formation of minor actinides (very undesirable nuclear material), while when U-233 doesn't fission it becomes U-234 which then captures another neutron leading to U-235 which is the most desirable nuclear fuel in a conventional uranium fueled reactor. In the end the probability of U-233 fissioning (85% as U-233, 80% as U-235, 80% as Np-237, 67% as Pu-239) is around 99.8%, the odds of U-233 forming a minor actinide is around 0.2%, compared to 33% for U-238 / Pu-239 !
http://indico.cern.ch/event/222140/session/6/contribution/24/material/slides/1.pdf
While I'm a big fan of molten salt reactors (able to use Thorium fuel much better than water cooled reactors), water cooled/solid fueled reactors could go from being a generator of plutonium and minor actinides using enriched uranium to being a disposal mechanism for plutonium using Thorium-Plutonium fuel, while making U-233. In the long run, U-233 reprocessed from Th-Pu fuel could be used to make U-233/Thorium fuel which could lead to a solution for migrating all water cooled reactors from enriched U-235 + U-238 fuel to U-233 + Thorium fuels.
How does this change the economics of nuclear reactors ?
1 - Thorium is essentially free. It is a byproduct of rare earth mining, meaning rare earth miners might even pay for someone to take the Thorium away from their hands, worst case Thorium will be 90% cheaper than Uranium.
2 - Thorium is 3x more plentiful than Uranium in the earths crust. But it gets even better, since Thorium has a unique radioactive signature that allows its detection by satellites, essentially we know exactly where there is Thorium in the earth.
3 - Countries that don't mandate nuclear reprocessing but that allow reprocessing need an economical interest to reprocess spent nuclear fuel (extracting unfissioned Uranium and Plutonium, throwing the Uranium back into the enrichment cycle to extract as much U-235 as possible from it and use the Plutonium to make Th-Pu or conventional Pu+U fuel). Plus there are tens of thousands of tons worth of reactor grade plutonium worldwide that countries want to dispose of (reactor grade plutonium is useless for making bombs, but much more radioactive than spent nuclear fuel, so it has much higher storage costs per ton). If all of this reactor grade plutonium were used to make Th-Pu fuel we could migrate the worldwide water cooled reactor fleet from uranium fuel to thorium fuel. This test in halden will provide the blueprints for this migration.
2 - U-233 is a far more desirable fissile material for nuclear reactors than Plutonium, because of much higher burnup, running any thermal spectrum reactor with Thorium based fuel will result in spent nuclear fuel with lots of U-233, which needs reprocessing to avoid creating a stockpile of spent fuel consisting Thorium+U-233 (plus fission products plus U-234,U-235 and further neutron capture). But this spent nuclear fuel is far more valuable than plutonium rich spent nuclear fuel, since U-233 is a better nuclear fuel than both U-235 and Plutonium. In the end higher burnup means less reprocessing is needed for more electricity produced (3-5x more electricity per reprocessing cycle than conventional uranium / plutonium+uranium fuel).
This could help satisfy some of the anti nuclear crowd that is mentions spent nuclear fuel as the main problem with nuclear. In an economical fashion, which is fundamental since the biggest real problem with nuclear is cost rather than safety.

Thorium+Plutonium and Thorium+U-233 fuels work better with CANDU and other heavy water reactors since they offer better neutron economy.
Spent nuclear fuel from Thorium+Plutonium fuel will contain higher levels of fission products and will generate more electricity per ton (higher burnup), so less spent nuclear fuel per GWh of electricity produced.

For those that understand we need nuclear to get rid of fossil fuels, it is very positive news. The current stage of testing started in 2013 and ends in 2015, when the fuel will be removed and undergo chemical/isotopical analysis. Notice this isn't a research test. All fuel characteristics have been precisely simulated and the test is just to prove that the simulations are correct. This could lead to the first batches of Thorium+Plutonium fuel being loaded into operational (full sized) reactors circa 2018, which is much sooner than even the most optimistic molten salt reactor schedule (DMSR by Terrestrial Energy in Canada).
 
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This sounds fantastic and hopeful, but I worry about the ability in the US to do things like changing the fuel without getting new approvals (which are very hard to get!). For example, the technicality that caused the San Onofre plant to close was that they weren't allowed to run it limited to 80% (or something like that) because the approval didn't anticipate that. What a mess that was!
 
This sounds fantastic and hopeful, but I worry about the ability in the US to do things like changing the fuel without getting new approvals (which are very hard to get!). For example, the technicality that caused the San Onofre plant to close was that they weren't allowed to run it limited to 80% (or something like that) because the approval didn't anticipate that. What a mess that was!
It is my understanding those tests are exactly the requirements to obtain such approval. Anyhow, to me its clear that the US NRC and equivalent Germany (just to single out the worst of them), are actively trying to destroy the nuclear industry. The process the NRC uses to aprove anything reflect the fact they are paid by the hour by whoever they are regulating, so they have the incentive to take as many hours as possible (last I heard was US$ 250/hour). Just look up the GE ESBWR nuclear reactor regulatory approval. And even after certifying a reactor, the NRC still redoes a ton of studies and analysis that should be made only once when the reactor is certified. It's pure insanity.
I believe the first reactors to get this type of fuel won't be in the USA nor in Germany. They are likely to go for reactors in more nuclear friendly countries like the Sweden, Finland, Norway, UK, France or Canada. Canada seems the best choice given they almost exclusively use CANDU reactors which are optimal for breeding U-233. Heavy water reactors cost more to build, but offer not only the best neutron economy among water cooled reactors but also online fuel loading (both optimal for breeding and fuel reprocessing).

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Thorium based fuel offers significantly higher thermal margins due to Thorium having far better thermal conductivity than Uranium. This means an even higher margin from a meltdown accident like Chernobyl and Fukushima. Uranium based fuels heat up to 1800C, while Thorium based fuels stay at around 1500C.
 
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I work in the nuclear supply chain. Cost or supply of enriched Uranium isn't even close to being any kind of issue thanks to Japan. Our enrichment technology is so efficient and we've overbuilt our enrichment infrastructure so much planning on demand that never materialized that we could easily turn the >400,000 metric tons of depleted Uranium the US has stockpiled in Paducah into a virtually infinite supply of feedstock. 'Depleted' Uranium still has ~33% as much U235 as natural.

I #1, #2 and #3 reasons nuclear power is struggling is Capital Cost, Capital Cost and Capital Cost. If they can get the cost of nuclear power <$2/w then it might have a chance.
 
I consider myself super liberal but no pollution, 435 nuclear power reactors worldwide and only one accident in thirty years...

A quick google search found many more "accidents" that one. Here's a Wikipedia entry -> List of nuclear power accidents by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Globally, there have been at least 99 (civilian and military) recorded nuclear power plant accidents from 1952 to 2009 (defined as incidents that either resulted in the loss of human life or more than US$50,000 of property damage, the amount the US federal government uses to define nuclear energy accidents that must be reported), totaling US$20.5 billion in property damages.


Only a few of these resulted in a meltdown or partial meltdown, but in any case, more than one. Nuclear fission power generation has been getting more and more reliable and safe, but natural disasters (e.g., Fukushima tsunami) and terrorist activity remain ever present threats.
 
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No! Cesium was detected in the water from Fukushima sampled in California waters. The fact that it can travel the ocean currents and be diluted over 5000 miles of travel and we can still detect it is still alarming.

We still have detectable increases worldwide in background radiation from Chernobyl. How many cancer and other illness deaths can you attribute in increases in this and other exposures. Nobody knows, but there are increases in these deaths.

List of nuclear and radiation accidents by death toll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Compared to Fossil Fuels

Death Rate From Nuclear Power Vs Coal? This May Surprise You

According to World Nuclear Association: (which does not account for indirect deaths)

Safety of Nuclear Reactors
 
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The one-sentence case for nuclear power.

No! Cesium was detected in the water from Fukushima sampled in California waters. The fact that it can travel the ocean currents and be diluted over 5000 miles of travel and we can still detect it is still alarming.

We still have detectable increases worldwide in background radiation from Chernobyl. How many cancer and other illness deaths can you attribute in increases in this and other exposures. Nobody knows, but there are increases in these deaths.

List of nuclear and radiation accidents by death toll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No! Please read the UN report on Chernobyl.

UNSCEAR assessments of the Chernobyl accident

I'll offer a brief summary:
" The accident at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant in 1986 was a tragic event for its victims, and those most affected suffered major hardship. Some of the people who dealt with the emergency lost their lives. Although those exposed as children and the emergency and recovery workers are at increased risk of radiation-induced effects, the vast majority of the population need not live in fear of serious health consequences due to the radiation from the Chernobyl accident. For the most part, they were exposed to radiation levels comparable to or a few times higher than annual levels of natural background, and future exposures continue to slowly diminish as the radionuclides decay. Lives have been seriously disrupted by the Chernobyl accident, but from the radiological point of view, generally positive prospects for the future health of most individuals should prevail."

There's so much fear mongering among those who have a vested interest against fission, as well as those duped in to believing it, that it's almost impossible to quantify.