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Nuclear power

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Safety is one concern, Skotty; cost is another. Of course, cost is related to safety. But the simple truth is that in today's regulatory environment, nuclear is a frightfully expensive option. The two new reactors under construction by Southern Company (Vogtle 3 & 4) currently have a budget of $15.55 billion, about $7000/kW. That budget is only going one direction: up. The Georgia PSC recently authorized some cost-overruns into rate base, and I will be extremely surprised if that's the last of the overruns. once built, the plant will cost a lot to operate; according to Southern Company, it will hire 800 people full time to run the new plants, and then there's fuel, materials, cap ex, and so forth. Compare these costs to modern solar or on-shore wind, and it's very hard to square the case for building nuclear when other options are available.
 
I don't think the costs of nuclear are a good argument against nuclear, in the same way the costs of rocket launches were not a good argument against rocket launches before SpaceX. I believe nuclear can be done much cheaper even with increasing safety margins if the right people are put in charge.

Viewing solar power as nuclear sourced from space doesn't take away from the argument for nuclear; in a way it adds to it. Why eat the scraps that fall of the kitchen table if you can stand up and make a dinner yourself? You just need the intelligence and maturity not to burn yourself on the oven, qualities we should strive for even if you don't think we have them already.
 
I don't think the costs of nuclear are a good argument against nuclear, in the same way the costs of rocket launches were not a good argument against rocket launches before SpaceX. I believe nuclear can be done much cheaper even with increasing safety margins if the right people are put in charge.

Viewing solar power as nuclear sourced from space doesn't take away from the argument for nuclear; in a way it adds to it. Why eat the scraps that fall of the kitchen table if you can stand up and make a dinner yourself? You just need the intelligence and maturity not to burn yourself on the oven, qualities we should strive for even if you don't think we have them already.

When someone finds a way to convert heat into electricity or convert fission/fusion directly into electricity AND can operate with a capacity factor of ~20% AND still provide electricity for <$0.04/kWh then perhaps we can give nuclear power another look... until that time wind/solar and storage are where most of our limited capital should go.
 
I don't think the costs of nuclear are a good argument against nuclear, in the same way the costs of rocket launches were not a good argument against rocket launches before SpaceX. I believe nuclear can be done much cheaper even with increasing safety margins if the right people are put in charge.

Viewing solar power as nuclear sourced from space doesn't take away from the argument for nuclear; in a way it adds to it. Why eat the scraps that fall of the kitchen table if you can stand up and make a dinner yourself? You just need the intelligence and maturity not to burn yourself on the oven, qualities we should strive for even if you don't think we have them already.

Nuclear from space is fusion. If nuclear power on earth were based on fusion, attitudes would be a lot different.

I look forward to the day when nuclear waste is used to fill children's balloons. :p
 
Elon is usually better at his math than this. I measured (using Google Earth Pro) the total footprint of several large nuclear stations, from the edges of the security fences and including cooling ponds. I couldn't find any that took more than 2 sq.mil. A typical nuke is 1,000 MW and will operate with about 90% capacity factor, therefore producing about 7.9 million MWH per year, or about 4 million MWH per square mile per year.

By contrast, the 550 MW Topaz Solar Farm takes up 9.5 mi.² (http://http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topaz_Solar_Farm). Assuming a 25% capacity factor, this facility will produce about 1.2 million MWh per year, or about 126,000 MWH per square mile per year.

Even if you quibble with some of the inputs, it's clear that nuclear an order of magnitude denser than solar.

He stated it as the total dead zone outside the fence where no one ever wants to or can build. He said that's typically a 3 mile radius.
 
He stated it as the total dead zone outside the fence where no one ever wants to or can build. He said that's typically a 3 mile radius.
While I have tremendous respect for Elon, he doesn't fact check everything he says. Counterexamples:
  • Seabrook Nuclear Station (NH): the entire towns of Hampton Beach, Seabrook, and Hampton Falls is within 3 miles of the station. There's a new housing subdivision 0.6 miles away.
  • Vermont Yankee: The entire town centers of Vernon VT and Hinsdale NH are within 3 miles. The new Vernon elementary school was built across the street from the reactor, about 0.3 miles away.
  • Millstone Nuclear: All of Niantic, CT is within 2 miles of the plant. The extremely valuable coastal properties here have remained a popular destination for wealthy New Yorkers/Fairfield County residents.
  • San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station: building nearby is limited by the fact that its built on the edge of Camp Pendleton, but there seems to be no shortage of fancy homes being built in nearby San Clemente.
I'm sure Elon wouldn't want to live within 3 miles of a nuclear station, but I can't see any evidence that it has a material impact on the general population. In New England, where town's main source of revenue is property tax receipts, nuclear power stations are very popular, at least with the local town government.
 
There are a lot of valid arguments against fission and for solar PV... energy density ain't one of 'em...

The 'exclusion zone' argument also fails to consider the fact that most power plants have multiple units... you need at least 15 sq miles of PV to equal the output of a single 1GW nuclear plant ~8TWh/yr. Palo Verde produces nearly 30TWh/yr since that site hosts 3 units. Other plants in the world are even more heavily populated... Bruce nuclear generating station in Canada produces >40TWh/yr from 8 units.

Not saying that nuclear is better because it has a higher energy density... cramming 4GW into a single point on the grid carries other problems... it's simply not a valid argument against nuclear. We have plenty of rooftops, parking lots and brown spaces... Solar PV doesn't need a higher energy density to provide for our needs.
 
Nuclear is the right way to generate power. It's how the universe does it, and it's how we should do it too. In my mind, the only valid objections and/or concerns about it have to do with whether or not we have sufficiently mastered the technology. Given the impending doom risk of global warming, it seems we should maybe give it a little slack even if we don't think it has been sufficiently mastered.

Most people seem to ignore that newer nuclear designs are far better than the design of nuclear plants currently in operation, which they really shouldn't. It matters a great deal in the benefit/risk analysis of building new power plants. And even the existing riskier designs in operation arguably have a satisfactory safety record.

Terrorist concerns are nonsense. You don't ban people having tools in their garage because someone might wander in and use them as weapons. You simply implement an adequate level of security for the expected level of threat.

Waste concerns are also way overblown if you look at energy density and how newer designs reduce waste quantity and longevity.

Really the whole argument should just boil down to whether or not renewables can meet all energy needs without the help of nuclear, and that being something to consider not because one is against nuclear in principle, but rather out of concern that our mastery of it is not yet sufficient to use it in place of gas or coal.

The leading argument for greens seems to be that renewables can do it all in a reasonable timeframe, but to date, I have found that argument to be highly unconvincing. I believe we should push ahead with advanced nuclear until such time as renewables can be convincingly deployed on a large scale. I don't think nuclear will ever completely go away as it seems to be the universal way to generate energy; everything else is just scavenging energy from something that started as nuclear somewhere else.

Terrorist concerns aren't "nonsense". While I agree that one shouldn't ban nuclear power due to terrorist concerns, as you say you need to implement added security and added security costs money. The problem with nuclear power isn't that the nuclear disaster will destroy a county, the problem is that all the safeguards to prevent it from destroying a county contribute to making it too expensive.

and the argument is more complicated than simply finding a way to generate 4 PWh of electricity per year. Both nuclear and solar/wind are somewhat time constrained. Solar and Wind only generate power when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing. Nuclear only generates power all the time. Nuclear can't easily generate power just for the few hours after the sun sets but before everyone goes to bed. and even if it could quickly ramp up/down its output, it would be horribly expensive to have all that capital sitting around during the sunny part of the day. If we had better storage, nuclear might complement renewables nicely. When the wind is turning the turbines you can pump water up into the San Luis Reservoir, and when everyone gets home from work, you can generate hydro-power from that stored energy. but in places where you don't have convenient storage, nuclear isn't a good choice to complement solar/wind.
 
Fair enough - but we're looking at thousands of reactor-years and 1 accident. Doesn't that prove the risks are negligible?
There is no logical 1 sentence response that properly explain why nuclear is safe.

There were two serious nuclear accidents in the whole history of nuclear power, Chernobyl and Fukushima.
Chernobyl was USSR stupidity at its finest. Its like building a building with way, way, way inferior materials, totally outside of code and when the building crumbles trying to say all buildings are unsafe. Chernobyl was BAD, but it shouldn't EVER happen again. Like trying to point out some airliner crash in the early jet age and use that to say that all airliners should be shutdown. Nuclear safety standards adopted in the early 70s in North America and western Europe were enough to prevent Chernobyl easily.

Fukushima was very different. It was the result of one of the strongest earthquakes to hit the earth over the last 2 centuries. It shifted the rotational axis of the earth by a few milimeters. It moved the whole Japanese mainland by 8 inches away from China. Yet the reactor survived both the earthquake and the tsunami. Then the tsunami washed over the emergency diesel reactors, fatally damaging them, preventing a critical heat decay removal function. It was one of the oldest reactor designs still allowed to operate in the world. There were reports telling TEPCO that both its tsunami defenses were insufficient and emergency generators were improperly positioned. It was a 40 year old reactor ! Still if one of the three emergency diesel generators were installed in higher ground the reactor would have been fine.
Should the tsunami washed over any Gen III+ reactor the reactor would have easily survived the event (even if it happened with a 50 year old Gen III+ reactor, lets say a reactor brought online by 2020 hit by a tsunami in 2070). AP1000 / ESBWR reactors don't need any power to shutdown safety. They only need a tiny emergency water pump (15hp) 72 hours after shutdown to replenish an emergency water tank.
The attitude that nuclear is unsafe is 99.9% the opinion of non engineers that understand nothing about designing (engineering) things. That don't want to study the subject before stating an opinion. That make a summary judgement based on emotional opinions.
Coal is unsafe. It kills 500 people daily worlwide (200000 people yearly worldwide). Natural gas kills 10000 people yearly worldwide. Oil kills 20000 people yearly worldwide.

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When I used to intern at a particle accelerator as part of my nuclear physics training many years ago it seemed the scientists consensus that fusion would be a 2035-2050 thing and fission was always seen as a dirty ugly messy transition technology. Back then the urgency of the carbon situation wasn't even so well understood although every educated person realized running on fossils wasn't sustainable. And newer gen slow burn reactors were just speculations.

The risks and costs go beyond documented powerplant failure, basically it is a brittle and power concentrating (as in political /economic) technology. Contrast to solar that encourages organic, self reliant deployment+supply+waste chain.
My personal stance is that today we are in a literal pick your poison problem, and we don't know whether we are equipped (tech, politically, mentally) to deal with either.
But the debate will have to be accelerated- Everything is relative but the speed of light and a bunch of other important things like the carbon in our atmosphere.
Fusion was always been at least 20 years away. 10 years from now it will still be 20 years away.


And nuclear is expensive because it has been viciously attacked by the environmentalist groups, by politicians trying to appease to their anti nuclear base.
This forced reactors to incorporate an insane level of safety features and an insane level of regulatory overload by the NRC (and equivalents), but its still not enough.
But the fact is water cooled nuclear reactors (the most common kind) are expensive because they were convenient for Naval needs but crappy for land needs, yet nobody wanted to spend tens of billions to design a new type of reactor when the Navy had already paid for water cooled reactors.

The Thorium Molten-Salt Reactor: Why Didnt This Happen (and why is now the right time?) - YouTube

Actually Alvin Weinberg and his Oak Ridge gang tried to do it. And got shutdown because Thorium molten salt reactors were their thing, everybody else was doing fast sodium breeder reactors. Then fast breeders got canned by Clinton/Gore/Kerry in the 90s.
Russia, China, Japan and a few other countries have operational fast reactors. Russia is moving forward with the BN800 and BN1200. India is starting their fast reactor in early 2015.
Molten Salt Reactors are also moving forward. The most credible effort seem to be Canadian (http://www.terrestrialenergy.com) but there are credible efforts in China, India and Czech Republic.
LFTR is a very fancy, technically amazing thorium breeder reactor, but it has a lot of technical/regulatory hurdles. A very down to earth nuclear scientist named Dr. David LeBlanc took the essence of MSR reactors, stripped everything that wasn't absolutely essential for a very safe and very economical MSR reactor and the IMSR was born. They're aiming to get to market by 2021 (at least in Canada, where the NRC equivalent, the CNSC has a very rational framework for small/modular reactors, in stark contrast with the NRC insane attitude towards any "new" nuclear designs).


Finally, its not solar or nuclear, its not wind or nuclear. We need all of the above. Solar is useless in Alaska, Finland, Sweden, Siberia. Solar is great in North Africa, but even there the sun doesn't shine at night. Many areas of the world don't have a whole lot of strong winds. Solar and wind are economical if you generate electricity for local markets, solar and wind are way too expensive to generate and transmit to a thousand miles away (only big hydro is economical for that).

Finally the electric grid is just a part of the problem. There's industrial process heat. There's building heating. There's road, rail and sea transportation. We need a solution for all of that. Nuclear is the only low carbon solution to industrial process heat. Wind is worthless for process heat. Solar is too limited (industries typically must operate 24x7 to be economical). If oil refineries used nuclear heat instead of burning natural gas the total CO2 intensity of gasoline/diesel would be substantially lower. If tar sands were extracted using nuclear heat instead of burning natural gas (plus was refined with nuclear heat), same thing.

While electric cars are a great solution, nobody dares say we'll have electrical locomotives or electrical ships. MSR nuclear is optimal for large ships. Hydrogen fuel cells (with hydrogen made with high temp nuclear) is an alternative for rail/trucking and buses. High temp nuclear can make synthetic jet fuel/gasoline/diesel replacements from CO2 and water or coal+water. Making synthetic fuels from coal is argued to be cleaner than refining oil, but I'm not a big believer in that. But hydrogen today is being made from natural gas or rarely with hydro electricity. Making hydrogen with electricity is very inefficient.

We must stop with this anti nuclear ideology. Its just as stupid as radical left, radical right politics, its just as bad as religious fundamentalism. Its rooted on feelings instead of facts.
 
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The problem with nuclear is not just the safety concerns (valid or not)
I feel it is just much too expensive and SLOW to build new GIGAWATTS :crying: to solve our problems right now. By all means keep the old ones going.
We need to slow down and stop then reverse CO2 generation then start sequestration if possible.

Below is a very upbeat article that shines a light (pardon the pun) on some very exciting research using real time energy use data to show the way forward.
This was research into a clean alternative energy to get Germany to 80% Renewable Energy by 2050 showing a cost SAVINGS with massive Renewable build out compared to Business as Usual in Germany
(Hopefully they will invest in grid storage like they did Solar to drive down prices for the rest of us :smile:)

Oh and the Gigafactory is a start but we need many more to be up and running if we are serious about this transition to EV / solar / storage .

Log In - The New York Times
 
I was told by an engineer at Diablo Canyon facility today that they have to scale back from 100 % to 80% during the day due to solar installations! They are considering just running at 80% so they don't have to adjust daily!

You ain't seen noth'in yet....

Screenshot-2014-03-25-14.36.08.png


I agree that we should absolutely keep our current fleet on-line as long as possible; but.... if you want to invest in NEW nuclear plants... here's a better use of that money...

2924979423_0b94967566.jpg
 
(nuclear)about 90% capacity factor, therefore (1,000MW) producing about 7.9 million MWH per year.....or 4 million MWH per square mile per year.....(solar)
126,000 MWH per square mile per year.


$15.55 billion, about $7000/kW. Compare these costs to modern solar or on-shore wind, and it's very hard to square the case for building nuclear when other options are available.


Robert.Boston, Using your numbers, if I may, you are effectively saying 15.55 billion buys the output of upcoming Vogtle. That's not 1,000MW, but about 2,200MW, for an annual output of 17.4 MMWH (or terawatt hours). Many plants have received license extensions, to 60 from 40 years, but if we go with a 40 year economic life, the question is what $ that works to, per kwh? I get $.022/kwh, ​using these numbers. Factor in common 1, or 2 cent/kwh O&M costs, and you know where we are? Austin Energy, this year obtained one of the bench-setting (25yr) PPA wholesale prices for solar PV, at 5 cents/kwh. The costs are even, if we stop here (I'll let nwdiver decide whether to ignore the 30% ITC, favoring solar).

We could:
-work with higher land costs, away from sunny Texas
-build in higher decomissioning, or disaster costs, for nuclear
-correct for solar lasting 25, versus nuclear potentially lasting 60 years
-lower solar's cost for rooftops, where land is free, or reduce your optimistic 25% capacity factor for all the states with less sun, poor quality roofs, etc, etc

My point, again, is I'm not much for the beauty contest, when we'll be lucky if fossil has less than a 60% share, in 2030. Solar vs. nuclear misses the point, within a one-sentence case for nuclear.
 
When you factor in fuel costs (including the costs of refueling), the numbers I've seen are more like $0.04 to $0.05/kWh. There are a bunch of critical assumptions underlying that number, though:
  • The U.S. government is subsidizing the risk cost of the unit; otherwise insurance costs would be sky-high or simply unattainable (which would kill any nuclear project).
  • The calculations assume the unit runs at full load whenever it's physically available. As 'priority' resources like solar and wind come on line, it can be the case that there's more generation than demand. If it's the nukes that are backed down, that hurts their economics. (PV solar doesn't have a good way to back down; wind does.)
  • The calculations assume no further budget increase or project delays. History suggests that both are likely.
  • While 'good' units may easily last 60 years, 'bad' units get shut down earlier, or have expensive retrofit costs. It's a roll of the dice whether any particular installation is going to be 'good' or 'bad', though most are good. (Kinda like cars; sometimes you get a lemon.)
You make a very good point: if we line up the available generation technologies by their environmental consequences, health/injuries/fatalities, or many other metrics, nuclear is pretty good. Germany has made an ecological bad decision shuttering its nukes and ramping up its coal plants. IMO, we should be focusing on getting coal and oil plants replaced with sustainable alternatives.

(I'm still of two minds about whether nuclear ought to be part of the ultimate mix, but I'm 100% sure that oil & coal should not be.)
 
I'm tired of the old "fusion will always be 50 years away" type arguments. The important thing to ask is this: is progress being made? If you look closely at fusion research, you will find progress IS being made. Not as fast as you might hope, but progress is there. The most obvious signs of this are the construction of ITER and plans for DEMO.

When progress stalls and researchers spend a decade shrugging their shoulders, then you can throw it all away and move on. But until then the advancements in plasma physics and fusion research should be acknowledged and allowed to continue.
 
Robert.Boston, Using your numbers, if I may, you are effectively saying 15.55 billion buys the output of upcoming Vogtle. That's not 1,000MW, but about 2,200MW, for an annual output of 17.4 MMWH (or terawatt hours). Many plants have received license extensions, to 60 from 40 years, but if we go with a 40 year economic life, the question is what $ that works to, per kwh? I get $.022/kwh, ​using these numbers. Factor in common 1, or 2 cent/kwh O&M costs, and you know where we are? Austin Energy, this year obtained one of the bench-setting (25yr) PPA wholesale prices for solar PV, at 5 cents/kwh. The costs are even, if we stop here (I'll let nwdiver decide whether to ignore the 30% ITC, favoring solar).

Your cost estimate misses a key point... the inevitable drop in Capacity Factor of nuclear plants due to the expansion of wind and solar. If we could find a way to keep nuclear capacity factor >80% long-term (>10 years) I would not oppose new construction. I see no viable way for that to be possible. The odds that Vogtle will ever repay its investors is very low and the economics of nuclear power get worse every year.

Even without the ITC solar is likely to continue its exponential growth. Also keep in mind that residential solar competes with retail rates while nuclear power must compete with wholesale rates. This isn't Solar vs Nuclear.... It's Solar OR Nuclear. Economically if we allow the unfettered expansion of solar, nuclear power will be snuffed out in the next 30 years. There's not a lot of enthusiasm in restricting the growth of solar.

Nuclear Power is like a rose and Solar PV is an aggressive vine. The only way for them to share the same flower bed is to continuously prune the vine... I don't see that as being very popular or advantageous. I'm certainly opposed to it. Sorry, the Rose is going to die... it's only a matter of time.
 
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I'm tired of the old "fusion will always be 50 years away" type arguments. The important thing to ask is this: is progress being made? If you look closely at fusion research, you will find progress IS being made. Not as fast as you might hope, but progress is there. The most obvious signs of this are the construction of ITER and plans for DEMO.

When progress stalls and researchers spend a decade shrugging their shoulders, then you can throw it all away and move on. But until then the advancements in plasma physics and fusion research should be acknowledged and allowed to continue.

Here my reason for this statement: Fusion is still in the research work. Its far from the development (2nd side of R&D).
There is NO honest assessment of everything that is needed to go from where we are right now to fully commercial operation. I have seen this movie before, the researchers enjoying job stability and billions of US$ to play with leave us with the impression "if only we could get to break even", then 10 years from now they get to break even, then there are another half a dozen research problems each taking years before we can have a demonstration fusion plant that actually puts electricity on the grid, then we need to get it to work reliably for many years (figure out the maintenance issues), then we might just have ourselves a buildup of a fusion fleet. Comparing fusion with fission reactor research, we should remind ourselves that WWII + Cold War justified the US govt going project manhattan into fission research R&D, even then after the first operational submarine nuclear reactor was operational there were serious accidents, more than one sub was lost, ground reactors entered into commercial operation but nuclear fission took most of the 50s, 60s and a good part of the 70s before fission reactors operated like clockwork (very little unscheduled downtime).

I see this exact same problem with govt funded advanced fission research (in Europe), they want until 2050 to have an operational molten salt reactor the slow govt funded research way (probably coinciding with the schedule of the most senior researcher retirement party).

Hopefully the Lockheed Martin fusion breakthrough is real. But the fission and fusion experts outside of LockMart aren't holding their breaths.

In the meantime molten salt research done 100% by the private sector abandoned any attempts to advance the state of the art of technology, going full Keep It Simple Stupid, laser focused on getting to market with a safe and economical product, instead of an optimal zero nuclear waste reactor (without SkunkWorks kind of funding would add another 10 years of development work, specially due to NRC regulatory issues). You can't simplify a fusion reactor cause we don't even know what approach will achieve full break even (producing more electricity than it uses, not producing more thermal heat than it uses electricity, big difference).

There have been advances on fission research, but nothing that we can point out against a list of technical barriers and say, hey we clearer another 2 barriers over the last 10 years, just another 6 to go !
 
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