NYT article: Stalled on the EV Highway

[ElSupreme]

This. And always has been. His original article completely obscures this simple fact. He uses very legalistic language about "charging until it stopped" "242 rated miles" etc. It isn't until his first response post that he admits that he only charged to 90%. Almost none of his readers would realize that based on the article that appeared in print.

Not to mention you have about 40% of your dash showing a huge green bar that is obviously NOT FULL! And when you plug in your huge screen telling you "Standard | Max Range" with a full description below about what each means. This wasn't a mistake, this was purposeful in that he didn't touch the 'Max Range' button. He just decided that anyone could make that mistake.

I stopped at 72 percent because I had replenished more than enough energy for the miles I intended to drive the next day before fully recharging on my way back to New York.

This should end everything right with this statement. Broder decided he had plenty of power to do all his driving, and ran out. Not a Tesla problem a Broder problem. He obviously didn't have enough energy to do all his driving! This is like me saying I only need 8 gallons of gas to drive the 240 miles to Charlotte, filling my bone dry tank with 8.2 gallons of fuel and being pissed because I ran out of gas in my 30mpg sticker car on the drive up there. Even with properly functioning fuel gauge and 'miles to empty' displays.

I call BS
Without ACC my Roadster sticks EXACTLY at the set CC speed. Never wavers more than a mile even on the steepest hill. An advantage of electric (again).

I also agree here. You can see when he was using CC in the graphs. They are stupidly steady, why would all of the sudden the CC stop working and have 20mph swings? WTF!

And the tire thing is 100% pure horse crap. I can't believe that the NYT let him even print that in his rebuttal! That is shameless and almost as bad as the first article.

 

[Norbert]

BTW is the difference between Midtown, Manhattan, and downtown Manhattan, relevant in this context?

 

[dpeilow]

surprise, surprise, the Register leads on this in its weekly email roundup.

 

[ElSupreme]

The car’s display screen said the car was shutting down, and it did. The car did not have enough power to move, or even enough to release the electrically operated parking brake. The tow truck driver was on the phone with Tesla’s New York service manager, Adam Williams, for 15 or 20 minutes as he was trying to move the car onto a flatbed truck.

I can buy this. Both parties have something here. No points given.

The Tesla personnel whom I consulted over the phone – Ms. Ra and Mr. Merendino – told me to leave it connected for an hour, and after that the lost range would be restored. I did not ignore their advice.

Obviously 1 hour of charging did not in fact restore the range. That is why it still said 32 miles! Point Tesla.

The phrase “the car fell short of its projected range” appeared in a caption with an accompanying map; it was not in the article. What that referred to (and admittedly could have been more precise) was that the car fell short of the projected range, 90 miles, that it showed when I parked it overnight at a hotel in Groton, Conn.

Tesla is correct that the car did exceed the projected range of 32 miles when I left Norwich, as I was driving slowly, and it gave me hope that the Tesla employee I’d consulted was correct that the mileage lost overnight was being restored. It wasn’t enough, however, to get to Milford.

John gets himself out of this one on a technicality. No points given.

If there was a public charging station nearby, no one made me aware of it. The Tesla person with whom I was in contact located on the Internet a public charging station in East Haven, Conn., and that is the one I was trying to reach when the car stalled in Branford, about five miles shy of East Haven.

This isn't point worthy. I wouldn't expect to know where to find charge locations if I didn't own a EV. But they were there. Point to Broder, if you think it is worth one.

I drove normally (at the speed limit or with prevailing traffic) when I thought it was prudent to do so. I do recall setting the cruise control to about 54 m.p.h., as I wrote. The log shows the car traveling about 60 m.p.h. for a nearly 100-mile stretch on the New Jersey Turnpike. I cannot account for the discrepancy, nor for a later stretch in Connecticut where I recall driving about 45 m.p.h., but it may be the result of the car being delivered with 19-inch wheels and all-season tires, not the specified 21-inch wheels and summer tires. That just might have affected the recorded speed, range, rate of battery depletion or any number of other parameters. Tesla’s data suggests I was doing slightly more than 50 over a stretch where the speed limit was 65. The traffic was heavy in that part of Connecticut, so cruise control was not usable, and I tried to keep the speed at 50 or below without impeding traffic.

Certainly, and as Tesla’s logs clearly show, much of my driving was at or well below the 65 m.p.h. speed limit, with only a single momentary spike above 80. Most drivers are aware that cars can speed up, even sometimes when cruise control is engaged, on downhill stretches.

• Didn't have CC at 54 for more than a mile or so, would have been shown on graph. Point Tesla.
• Can't account for 'discrepancy' means he wasn't paying attention or is lying. Point Tesla.
• Can't account for 'remembering' driving 45 when obviously not means he wasn't paying attention or is lying. Point Tesla.
• Bringing up lie about tire sizes that would only make a correction in the opposite way his satememnt is a NYT error for letting it get printed. Point Tesla. This is pure misinformation that Media outlets should NOT be allowed to print.
• Cruise control spiking 15mph in normal operation. When graph shows VERY tight control over 100s of miles. Lie! Point Tesla.

[QUOTE John Broder][FONT=georgia, times new roman, times, serif]I raised and lowered the cabin heat in an effort to strike a balance between saving energy and staying somewhat comfortable. (It was 30 degrees outside when I began the trip, and the temperature plunged that night to 10 degrees.) Tesla jumped to the conclusion that I claimed to have lowered the cabin temperature “at 182 miles,” but I never wrote that. The data clearly indicates that I sharply lowered the temperature setting – twice – a little over 200 miles into the trip. After the battery was charged I tried to warm the cabin.[/QUOTE][/FONT]

[FONT=georgia, times new roman, times, serif]I agree with Broder on this one. But he definitely wrote about how cold and miserable the cabin was, if it was really cold outside he would have had a coat it wouldn't have been that bad. But Point Broder.[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia, times new roman, times, serif]

[/FONT]According to my notes, I plugged into the Milford Supercharger at 5:45 p.m. and disconnected at 6:43 p.m. The range reading was 185 miles.

Ok, you took somewhat bad notes. Off a few minutes no problem, off 11 minutes you need to get better at your job. Who cares that it said 185 miles, you just saw driving to that charge spot you get less actual miles than that number says! Point Tesla.

I stopped at 72 percent because I had replenished more than enough energy for the miles I intended to drive the next day before fully recharging on my way back to New York. In Norwich, I charged for an hour on the lower-power charger, expressly on the instructions of Tesla personnel, to get enough range to reach the Supercharger station in Milford.

Obviously you DID NOT have enough energy to do all your driving, you ran out of power! You just saw driving to that charge spot you get less actual miles than that number says! Point Tesla.

I drove around the Milford service plaza in the dark looking for the Supercharger, which is not prominently marked. I was not trying to drain the battery. (It was already on reserve power.) As soon as I found the Supercharger, I plugged the car in.

The stop in Manhattan was planned from the beginning and known to Tesla personnel all along. According to Google Maps, taking the Lincoln Tunnel into Manhattan (instead of crossing at the George Washington Bridge) and driving up the West Side Highway added only two miles to the overall distance from Newark, Del., to Milford, Conn.

Neither I nor the Model S ever visited “downtown Manhattan."

I can accept Broder's explanation of finding the charge. I don't believe him. I still think he drove around some, but it is plausible. Point Broder.
Obviously Broder didn't go to 'downtown' manhatten. The Lincoln Tunnel put you out too high up. Maybe midtown?. Who cares on this one. No points given.

So tallying things up I get.

Tesla John Broder

8 2

Not to mention there are inaccuricies and lies from Broder and the NYT. Or just 'bad at job' behavior. Tesla did stretch the cabin temperature bit unfairly. And making a big deal about 0.6 miles is pretty petty (but truthful!). But I think this thing boils down to this one quote!

I stopped at 72 percent because I had replenished more than enough energy for the miles I intended to drive the next day before fully recharging on my way back to New York.

No you didn't that is why the car ran out of energy!

 

[Edgewood Dome]

Having to turn the heat down and drive below the speed limit just to make it to a supercharger, and a 1 hour or more wait, doesn't seem to me to be part of the "best car in the world". This just shows that the Model S is nothing more than an expensive enthusiast car, it is never going to be mainstream.

You are not going to get Joe Blow public to buy this car and then tell them that they can't drive more than 200 miles or that they should slow down and turn the heat off to avoid becoming stranded. Until battery technology improves drastically, EVs will never become the majority of vehicles on the road, despite all the hype and hope on these and other forums.

Even if there were supercharges every 50 miles all over this country, having to wait so long to charge is never going to be appealing. I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying, but to the average American, not an EV enthusiast or technology lover or someone who cares about the environment, convenience is 100% key. The ability to get in your car and go right away, not to have to plan a charge or preheat your car with an app or some other step that is not needed in an ICE. The Model S and Tesla probably will be successful, but in terms of any significant percentage of the car market, don't count on it.

Mattjn, I see that you have only been a member since Dec 2012 and may not have been reading the posts very long. I too have only been a member for a short time, however I've been studying the Model S and reading the blogs (both here and at TM) for over a year. I can tell you that what you are insinuating is completely incorrect. Either you don't know what your talking about, or you have an agenda. Either way, please don't post your thoughts as fact unless you are sure of them.

 

[4sevens.com]

I've never had much respect for NYT as they are heavily biased and agenda driven - case in point here.

They should do the right thing and save their integrity - the chief editor should step in, pull the article, fire Broder, and print a short apology and be done.

NYT will only get more egg in their face by continuing this outrageous debacle.

 

[Grendal]

The brief CNN Money article:

Test drive: DC to Boston in a Tesla Model S - Feb. 15, 2013

When I finished this story my first thought was that this is the story that Broder should have written. It still has a bit of range anxiety. It highlights the Superchargers and explains how they work, which is what the NYT sent Broder to do. And in the end explains the differences between a gas car and an electric one.

It would have been boring though. The article Broder wrote was much more spectacular. You can easily conclude why he did, what he did.

 

[Owner]

The whole incident got front page coverage today in the San Jose Mercury News:

Elon Musk vs The New York Times: battle escalates Thursday with dueling blog posts - San Jose Mercury News

 

[dpeilow]

No you didn't that is why the car ran out of energy!

Agree on all other points, but we are forgetting the overnight range loss. This is the key difference with the CNN drive last night - they did not have an overnight cold soak.

He put in what he thought was enough to do the round trip to and from the supercharger, with some margin. He then got caught out by the range drop, and - whether or not Tesla gave him bad advice - reacted to this in the wrong manner. I would have been surprised by this drop too, and I can't blame an EV newbie for this.

As it seems that the SOC drop was only 5% (~13 real miles), then Tesla needs to shoulder some of the blame for this. The software over-estimated the drop, encouraging some bad range anxiety, which snowballed into some more extreme events later that day.

 

[4sevens.com]

I've never had much respect for NYT as they are heavily biased and agenda driven - case in point here.

They should do the right thing and save their integrity - the chief editor should step in, pull the article, fire Broder, and print a short apology and be done.

NYT will only get more egg in their face by continuing this outrageous debacle. As one who runs my own company - this is an easy executive decision especially with all the facts in plain view.

 

[ElSupreme]

Yes, as others have explained, look at the state-of-charge chart in comparison:

In my interpretation, it indicates that the real loss in the battery is comparatively small (looks like about 20 miles or even less to me), and that the impression of the larger change in displayed "rated range" may be just in the software calculation of displaying the range in the user interface. Perhaps an attempt to account for the energy that will be necessary to bring the battery up to temperature, which however is much smaller as well. (As also several Model S owners reported who had the same pseudo-problem, yet to a smaller degree. They were able to recover the seemingly lost range. Which however just meant that the display re-calculated to display a more representative display value of the real charge.)

Furthermore, some of the state-of-charge reduction may be due to the unnecessary battery-conditioning-while-not-plugged-in which was done in the morning.

I agree. I got this warning after my 220 mile drive in the North Georgia Mountains. It was cold there too!

Which looks like it will 'derate' the total battery pack if the pack temperature gets too cold. When it warms up it looks like you get this back. Your graphs show that too, as the first bit of driving the rated range discharge rate is much less steep.

I am surprised no one has posted this shot either. How hard is it to charge in max range. The WHOLE 17" screen says this, with a full paragraph describing what each mode does.

 

[Martini]

The fact remains the dude got bad advice from Tesla (speed up and slow down to increase your range via regen) (the miles will come back once the pack warms up). Broder's article was certainly enabled by Tesla's mismanagement of his trip.

- - - Updated - - -

I've never had much respect for NYT as they are heavily biased and agenda driven - case in point here.

They should do the right thing and save their integrity - the chief editor should step in, pull the article, fire Broder, and print a short apology and be done.

NYT will only get more egg in their face by continuing this outrageous debacle.

The NYT is one of the finest news organisations in the world. Elon's response was overly negative and personal, and he does not prove his case of deliberate sabotage. I would hate to be on Tesla's PR team with Elon jumping in on media relations like this.

 

[jbherman]

Having to turn the heat down and drive below the speed limit just to make it to a supercharger, and a 1 hour or more wait, doesn't seem to me to be part of the "best car in the world". This just shows that the Model S is nothing more than an expensive enthusiast car, it is never going to be mainstream.

You are not going to get Joe Blow public to buy this car and then tell them that they can't drive more than 200 miles or that they should slow down and turn the heat off to avoid becoming stranded. Until battery technology improves drastically, EVs will never become the majority of vehicles on the road, despite all the hype and hope on these and other forums.

Even if there were supercharges every 50 miles all over this country, having to wait so long to charge is never going to be appealing. I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying, but to the average American, not an EV enthusiast or technology lover or someone who cares about the environment, convenience is 100% key. The ability to get in your car and go right away, not to have to plan a charge or preheat your car with an app or some other step that is not needed in an ICE. The Model S and Tesla probably will be successful, but in terms of any significant percentage of the car market, don't count on it.

This "Joe Blow public" MS owner has now had his car for 1 month. I've yet to experience a single one of the issues you've outlined. I get into my car every morning with a full "tank." I haven't seen a gas pump in a month. I haven't had an "oh crap" moment driving to or from work requiring me to interrupt my schedule to stop for gas and end up late for a meeting or getting home. My life has become easier...not more inconvenient. The average "Joe Blow public" American doesn't routinely/regularly take 200+ mile road trips. When we do, we often like to stop to stretch, go to the bathroom, or eat every 2-3 hours (right in the MS range). 1 or 2 45 minute road stops aren't inconvenient for a 400+ mile trip, in my mind. Furthermore, I don't have to pre-heat my car, but I may choose to do so from time to time. This wasn't even an option for me on my 2010 Audi A6. Given your comments, I think it's clear that you just don't get it. Try driving a Model S for a month and if you don't think otherwise, you're lying to yourself.

 

[4sevens.com]

The NYT is one of the finest news organisations in the world..

That is highly debatable. It's one of biggest yes. If you allow political bias and strong left-leaning agendas in your definition of "finest" then you need your vocabulary checked.

It's flat out clear that Broder lied - he said the car had to be flat bedded whereas the data shows he still had range left. After one lie how can you trust anything else he says? Oops I forget - it's the media. If they don't lie then somethings wrong.

 

[jbherman]

The fact remains the dude got bad advice from Tesla (speed up and slow down to increase your range via regen) (the miles will come back once the pack warms up). Broder's article was certainly enabled by Tesla's mismanagement of his trip.

We now have the data logs. What we lack is any form of evidence (other than Broder's self-serving reports) that he received poor instructions from Tesla. Given the proven invalidity of the factual components of his trip, what makes you so certain that his comments regarding Tesla's input along the way are accurate and truthful? His credibility is shot.

As far as Elon's response is concerned, given the information at hand, what would you do? Tesla is still fighting for long term viability. If reports like Broder's were to go unchallenged, Tesla would be seen as an easy mark for its uninformed or biased detractors.

 

[Yuri_G]

The fact remains the dude got bad advice from Tesla (speed up and slow down to increase your range via regen) (the miles will come back once the pack warms up). Broder's article was certainly enabled by Tesla's mismanagement of his trip.

- - - Updated - - -



The NYT is one of the finest news organisations in the world. Elon's response was overly negative and personal, and he does not prove his case of deliberate sabotage. I would hate to be on Tesla's PR team with Elon jumping in on media relations like this.

Broder said he got the advice from Tesla, he has yet to validate any of these claims with proof.

 

[vfx]

View attachment 16541

I am surprised no one has posted this shot either. How hard is it to charge in max range. The WHOLE 17" screen says this, with a full paragraph describing what each mode does.

Agreed El!

This image should be part of any refuting of his ignorance of range mode. Would be nice if the battery sowed what standard mode full looked like and the only thing that would make it better would be a finger in the frame to show how freakin' big it is.

 

[Norbert]

I raised and lowered the cabin heat in an effort to strike a balance between saving energy and staying somewhat comfortable. (It was 30 degrees outside when I began the trip, and the temperature plunged that night to 10 degrees.) Tesla jumped to the conclusion that I claimed to have lowered the cabin temperature “at 182 miles,” but I never wrote that. The data clearly indicates that I sharply lowered the temperature setting – twice – a little over 200 miles into the trip. After the battery was charged I tried to warm the cabin.

I agree with Broder on this one. But he definitely wrote about how cold and miserable the cabin was, if it was really cold outside he would have had a coat it wouldn't have been that bad. But Point Broder.

Actually Tesla is correct in that he claims to have set the climate control to "low" after 182 miles, he just didn't use the number "182". He wrote "At 68 miles since recharging", and 68 miles + 114 miles is in fact 182 miles, as Tesla said. He just might not have understood that.

In any case he lowered the climate control to about 64F only around Manhattan, much later. In his later response, he sounds like he turned it completely off for the whole 200 miles (depending on how you parse his sentence). Given that the climate control is a major factor in relation to how much charge was missing, and turning it low for 70 miles is not the same as turning it low for 140 miles (which he claimed). I think this point should go to Tesla (setting your score count to 9 - 1).

Obviously Broder didn't go to 'downtown' manhatten. The Lincoln Tunnel put you out too high up. Maybe midtown?. Who cares on this one. No points given.

It is difficult to tell from Tesla's log charts, but it seems he might have lost quite an amount of energy in Manhattan and/or later, since the speed graph is very active there. I was surprised he made a point of not having been in "downtown" as Elon wrote, since "Midtown" doesn't seem very far, and the graphic says he was in Midtown, Manhattan (not sure where "downtown" exactly is as an area).

- - - Updated - - -

Agree on all other points, but we are forgetting the overnight range loss. This is the key difference with the CNN drive last night - they did not have an overnight cold soak.

He put in what he thought was enough to do the round trip to and from the supercharger, with some margin. He then got caught out by the range drop, and - whether or not Tesla gave him bad advice - reacted to this in the wrong manner. I would have been surprised by this drop too, and I can't blame an EV newbie for this.

As it seems that the SOC drop was only 5% (~13 real miles), then Tesla needs to shoulder some of the blame for this. The software over-estimated the drop, encouraging some bad range anxiety, which snowballed into some more extreme events later that day.

I doubt this. The over-estimation on the display doesn't cause the car to stop, of course. As for the "extreme events": the detour was covered mostly by the Level 2 charge, and the heating/conditioning etc did cause some loss, but not more than the safety margin he should have left (besides it wasn't really necessary, and most likely wouldn't have been done if he had charged more in the first place). As we discussed before, a charge of 185 miles for roughly 140 miles is not enough, by far not, for an inexperienced driver who already knows that cold bites into the range, and who already had the experience of running the car down below zero range, in spite of turning down climate control for 50 - 70 miles.

 

[EdA]

Was their endpoint the same as Broder's?

They went all the way to Boston, Broder had to be towed and ended early.

 

[Zythryn]

They went all the way to Boston, Broder had to be towed and ended early.

Thanks, I thought so but wasn't sure.
Can't wait to see the other guys recreating the route with the overnight as well