OFFICIAL BUTTON WATCH

[rxlawdude]

I have Enhanced Autopilot but I don't think the currently available FSD feature is worth the money (stoplight response). But yeah, I don't think I would pay for what I see in the beta videos. I'll have to see if people I know like it and how much they use it.

The man himself says trusting the system is the biggest cause of collisions while using Autopilot.
"One of the common misimpressions is that when there is, say, a serious accident on Autopilot, people – or some of the articles – for some reason think that it’s because the driver thought the car was fully autonomous and it wasn’t, and we somehow misled them into thinking it was fully autonomous. It is the opposite.

When there is a serious accident, it’s in fact almost always, maybe always, the case that it is an experienced user and the issue is more one of complacency. They get too used to it. That tends to be more of an issue. It is not a lack of understanding of what Autopilot can do. It’s actually thinking they know more about Autopilot than they do, like quite a significant understanding of it."
Elon Musk

Fair enough. Complacency is not a legal defense.

 

[AndreP]

I'm guessing the intent here is to obey traffic control officers.

If we're picturing vehicles that perform actions based on people using gestures when standing in the road, it's probably advisable to keep your expectations low and your timelines long

 

[helvio]

If we're picturing vehicles that perform actions based on people using gestures when standing in the road, it's probably advisable to keep your expectations low and your timelines long

Not really! We are in fact very advanced in recognizing human gestures, already, which is pretty exciting! There are technologies out there that can convert ASL to Text!

SLAIT – Real-time Sign Language Translator with AI

Video communication app that helps American Sign Language (ASL) speakers communicate with hearing

slait.ai

My understanding is that a full language is more complex than a subset of hand gestures used for traffic control, so my view about this is fairly optimistic. Not oversimplifying, I'm sure it will take time because an error can result in death, not in bad translation. But still, positive outlook!

 

[AndreP]

Not really! We are in fact very advanced in recognizing human gestures, already, which is pretty exciting! There are technologies out there that can convert ASL to Text!

SLAIT – Real-time Sign Language Translator with AI

Video communication app that helps American Sign Language (ASL) speakers communicate with hearing

slait.ai

My understanding is that a full language is more complex than a subset of hand gestures used for traffic control, so my view about this is fairly optimistic. Not oversimplifying, I'm sure it will take time because an error can result in death, not in bad translation. But still, positive outlook!

We also have technology in vehicles that can detect certain hand gestures in front of screens and do stuff based on that, but it uses a very structured set of gestures + close proximity + the value added is questionable. And it doesn’t involve moving a massive vehicle.

Google was showing off hand gesture recognition technology in 2015, check out 09:50 in this Ted Talk

Six years later and we’re still talking like it’s right around the corner

 

[helvio]

We also have technology in vehicles that can detect certain hand gestures in front of screens and do stuff based on that, but it uses a very structured set of gestures + close proximity + the value added is questionable. And it doesn’t involve moving a massive vehicle.

Google was showing off hand gesture recognition technology in 2015, check out 09:50 in this Ted Talk

Six years later and we’re still talking like it’s right around the corner

Very good information, thanks! That's a video I've never seen before.

I think it comes down to expectations. I'm a diehard optimistic. I'm not sure about you.
I've been fooled by Elon countless times and I think I always will.

I get what you say, though. You're probably right. But my brain refuses to admit that.

 

[gearchruncher]

If Tesla's top priority isn't safety, what is it? Last I checked, you're not the chairman making the decisions, so I really question your assertiveness.

For all the people that downvoted the idea that safety is not Tesla's top priority, even though Elon claims it is, Cleantechnica has an article that @helvio called "One of the most interesting articles I've ever read." that explains how safety is never the top priority (and points to a great article from Mike Rowe on it as well).

Mike Rowe:

What I suggested in my post last week, was that Safety is not a thing to be “ranked,” but rather, a state of mind, to be applied as needed to a myriad of situations in varying amounts. But if we were to rank it, it would rarely be “first.” Were safety truly “first,” no level of risk would ever be encouraged or permitted, and no work would ever get done. Or play, for that matter.

I'm not saying I am against this process as a way to release L2 systems, but claiming safety is Teslas TOP priority is demonstrably false and is marketing puffery. Like any business they have many competing priorities, and in this case the economic and R&D needs clearly are in front of maximizing safety.

Plus, anybody actually trained in safety knows there is no such thing as "safety." All systems have risk. If 100% safety is your top priority, you never make a car at all. There's only acceptable safety balanced against the functionality and value of your product, and anyone that claims safety is the top priority of their system clearly has failed to actually document their priorities. Cars are dangerous. But useful. That's always a hard tradeoff. But that message doesn't sell and isn't sexy, so Elon gets to say "top priority!" and lap up that fanboy praise as if tweeting something makes it true.

Safety is a priority at Tesla. So is making money, marketing their products, selling useful cars to people, developing future technologies (which might increase safety!), and making regulators happy. None of those are "the" top priority. They're all hard tradeoffs. If there's only one to priority, an excel spreadsheet can run your business.

 

[qdeathstar]

For all the people that downvoted the idea that safety is not Tesla's top priority, even though Elon claims it is, Cleantechnica has an article that @helvio called "One of the most interesting articles I've ever read." that explains how safety is never the top priority (and points to a great article from Mike Rowe on it as well).

Mike Rowe:

I can’t believe people are still trying to make the argument Tesla is a saftey first company. No freaking way.

 

[kaffine]

Mike Rowe:
What I suggested in my post last week, was that Safety is not a thing to be “ranked,” but rather, a state of mind, to be applied as needed to a myriad of situations in varying amounts. But if we were to rank it, it would rarely be “first.” Were safety truly “first,” no level of risk would ever be encouraged or permitted, and no work would ever get done. Or play, for that matter.

I have worked at a place that was safety first. I spent 4 hours in a meeting talking about how to plug a cable back in and what safety precautions they were going to take. I left after they started talking about if work had to provide underwear as in the safety document it stated that it must be natural material so should fall under PPE which must be provided, the argument against is that it doesn't say you have to wear underwear just that if you do it must be natural fiber.

I didn't want to be part of the next argument which was going to be who is responsible for inspecting the underwear to make sure it is in compliance.

At one point they required a qualified electrical worker dressed out in full arc flash gear to change batteries in a flashlight.

 

[nepenthe]

For all the people that downvoted the idea that safety is not Tesla's top priority, even though Elon claims it is, Cleantechnica has an article that @helvio called "One of the most interesting articles I've ever read." that explains how safety is never the top priority (and points to a great article from Mike Rowe on it as well).

Mike Rowe:

In my first comment to you, I literally said “You can prioritize safety, while advancing and developing other functionality that carries inherent risk.” and then ended it with a Mike Rowe quote... But you still argued with me that it wasn’t safe enough, because it could be used improperly, to which I made analogies to other dangerous activities in and outside the car. Then you went into Airplanes and their software failing in its intended functionality, as if it was an apt example, which it was not. You are now making my point for me…

 

[PorthosJon]

Elon, I’m begging you from the depths of my being, for the love of which-ever god you choose, please please please release the FSD Button so that this topic has something to discuss that is actually related to the title.

 

[qdeathstar]

Elon, I’m begging you from the depths of my being, for the love of which-ever god you choose, please please please release the FSD Button so that this topic has something to discuss that is actually related to the title.

now look, I said this before and I’ll say it again. The button has been released. And it is in you. And Elon is pressing it so hard.

 

[helvio]

For all the people that downvoted the idea that safety is not Tesla's top priority, even though Elon claims it is, Cleantechnica has an article that @helvio called "One of the most interesting articles I've ever read." that explains how safety is never the top priority (and points to a great article from Mike Rowe on it as well).

Mike Rowe:

Seems like I got a fan!

Yes that article is very interesting! It's one perspective on safety. Is it the absolute truth? Probably not. Is it the best approach? For some, definitely.
But the main point is ACCOUNTABILITY. I don't think it's NOT safety first when you release a functionality with not only disclaimers to satisfy the lawyers out there, but also MESSAGES TO THE TESTERS: SERIOUSLY DUDE PAY ATTENTION, THIS MIGHT KILL YOU AND OTHERS AND YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE.

But you're not ready for this conversation. You only care about ONE view on safety, as defined by your 2424242424242 handbook - which is ALSO just one perspective.

 

[gearchruncher]

In my first comment to you, I literally said “You can prioritize safety, while advancing and developing other functionality that carries inherent risk.” and then ended it with a Mike Rowe quote... But you still argued with me that it wasn’t safe enough, because it could be used improperly, to which I made analogies to other dangerous activities in and outside the car. Then you went into Airplanes and their software failing in its intended functionality, as if it was an apt example, which it was not. You are now making my point for me…

Why quote when you can fabricate? I said nothing you claim I did in a response to you. In fact, my response to you was:

Yep, we're fully in agreement.

I did follow up, in the context of you claiming public beta testing was the same as a kitchen knife or smoking, which can be left completely up to the responsibility of the individual user. It is devoid of any discussion of software failures, nor do I argue that it wasn't safe enough, just that it is a system where Tesla must be involved in the evaluation of risk, not just the user.

Testing in a car on public roads is more complex than that. The failure of your system may injure a completely uninvolved person in another car or a pedestrian. This is not the same as an individual deciding to eat unhealthy food or using a kitchen knife, which do not harm other uninvolved people. Tesla has a responsibility to all of society, not just it's own customers. It needs to in fact evaluate how well it's customers are able to interact with the system they created and the risk that places all of society at. This is also a highly complex system that no consumer is fully able to evaluate the risk of, due to incomplete information about the system. This is why we don't just allow aircraft manufacturers to make airplanes with no oversight and sell tickets to customers with a disclaimer saying "you're an adult, you evaluate the risk."

You should also attribute quotes to people FYI, not just put them as a one liner at the end of a post as if you are saying them.

 

[DarkandStormy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1415782123298902019

There's already another thread up on these, but I guess the question related to this thread is when does the "button" go out and does it depend on which beta version is live? I.e., will there be a button for V9 or will it not come until V11? or Vx where x = >11?

 

[KArnold]

FSD is ostensibly indistinguishable from human driving

Not where I drive. It would be have easy to merge. By this logic, you could eliminate left turns altogether - just make 3 rights every time instead. I'm not sure what part he was impressed with. Long way to go.

 

[Dan D.]

FSD is ostensibly indistinguishable from human driving

Not where I drive. It would be have easy to merge. By this logic, you could eliminate left turns altogether - just make 3 rights every time instead. I'm not sure what part he was impressed with. Long way to go.

I prefer to read Frenchie's quote as sarcasm, then it explains the driving mistake better. Allow me to take some creative artistic license here, apologies to the original author:


After ~9months! of beta testing, it's amazing to see how much progress has been made.
FSD Beta9 struggles to get on the highway but corrects itself by changing its route safely.
FSD is ostensibly indistinguishable from human driving


Elon did notice the post, as the flattering statement it sort of appeared to be. So he's already planning a Beta v11. Not an FSD v11. Yeah, it's never coming out.

 

[rxlawdude]

Not where I drive. It would be have easy to merge. By this logic, you could eliminate left turns altogether - just make 3 rights every time instead. I'm not sure what part he was impressed with. Long way to go.

In Michigan, many intersections forbid left turns. Instead, you proceed a half a block or so to a u-turn lane, wait for your green, then move over to make a right on the destination street.

I had never seen that before doing some consulting work in suburban Detroit area years ago. I think it's colloquially known as a "Michigan Left."

 

[gearchruncher]

In Michigan, many intersections forbid left turns. Instead, you proceed a half a block or so to a u-turn lane, wait for your green, then move over to make a right on the destination street.

Are all those greens fully protected? An unprotected U turn is harder than a simple left, so I'm not sure what the point here is, and even protected U's have the issue with people turning right on red from the perpendicular road.

 

[Microterf]

I prefer to read Frenchie's quote as sarcasm, then it explains the driving mistake better. Allow me to take some creative artistic license here, apologies to the original author:


After ~9months! of beta testing, it's amazing to see how much progress has been made.
FSD Beta9 struggles to get on the highway but corrects itself by changing its route safely.
FSD is ostensibly indistinguishable from human driving


Elon did notice the post, as the flattering statement it sort of appeared to be. So he's already planning a Beta v11. Not an FSD v11. Yeah, it's never coming out.

Not to mention it was stated beta 10 for wide release when they counted by increments of 1. Then they switched to 8.1,8.2 etc. So who knows how many 9.x releases there will be.

 

[Cheburashka]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1415782123298902019

There's already another thread up on these, but I guess the question related to this thread is when does the "button" go out and does it depend on which beta version is live? I.e., will there be a button for V9 or will it not come until V11? or Vx where x = >11?

Who knows. Might be a couple of years before we even see v11. Took them five months between V8 and v9 and it's not all that different.