Ontario overnight ultra low rate announced

[IndyToronto]

I tried to make a business case for solar in Windsor (Even more sun). My conclusion was that electricity rates are still too low. When the big change will happen is once rates climb dramatically and solar cost continue to drop.

Certainly the savings from using it yourself makes no sense because of the tiered/ultra low tiered rates. The only way is if you sell it back at the highest tire rates. And even then, you haven't factored in the time value of money in lost interest/dividend earnings of the money at a time when prime rate is 7.2%+.

 

[IndyToronto]

Agreed, seven years was the simple payback ignoring the time value of money or taxes. The IRR of these (-32000,4500,4500 (for twenty years)) cashflows is 12.8%. That is pretax. And I am ignoring the fact that in 2035 I wills till have the panels and can switch to net metering from that point forward. Assuming that my daytime rate is $0.20/kWh and some degradation then I will be able to offset $2000 per year from 2035 onwards with net metering - that means I will reduce my power used by using my own power. I will have to have system rewired at that point as right now my power produced goes to a separate meter and back to the grid. Under net metering it will flow through the same meter.

The income is taxable but you do have depreciation (AKA CCA) and you can offset expenses against this. And you could have borrowed money and the interest would be tax deductible, or would offset the income from the panels.

The panels do degrade over time but the degradation does not appear to have been that appreciable - you will notice from the graph above that I just had my best September ever. It would be interesting to download the amount of sun that Toronto received in Sep 2023 and compare it to other years to see how much my panels would have produced this year if there had been no degradation. Estimates are that panels degrade from 0.5%-3% per year.

Was there any change in your home insurance premiums?

 

[archanfel]

I looked into the solar installations - they have a map of existing installations and what power they are currently generating - unfortunately I checked in Feb(?) when we were still not out of winter, and the numbers appear to be < 1/5th daily of the supposed peak summer numbers in their brochure. Kept trying to make the math work - especially with ability to use timers on big appliances including Teslas and the Ultra Low rate - it was impossible to make the numbers work. If I'm in UltraLow, does this mean that I can sell the solar power back to the grid at the highest tier for the Ultra Low Rate?

And I didn't even get the home insurance premiums increase yet. With Ultra Low, it's difficult to pay for the solar install.

I agree. Toronto electricity price is way too low for solar to make sense unless you can sell back to the grid.

 

[ZooSean]

Just found Alectra Utilities can now switch to ULR, let me see if it actually benefit from it as I normally cook during the peak time.

 

[wayner]

No, I haven't had higher home insurance rates. Are some people seeing that?

In terms of current solar installations in Ontario - my understanding is that if you are on net metering then you have to go on the tiered rate, not ULO or TOU. Tiered rates are $0.087 and $0.103. So if I am understanding it correctly the most you will save is $0.103/kWh, plus the various other charges like distribution and transmission fees that are a few cents per kWh.

 

[IndyToronto]

No, I haven't had higher home insurance rates. Are some people seeing that?

In terms of current solar installations in Ontario - my understanding is that if you are on net metering then you have to go on the tiered rate, not ULO or TOU. Tiered rates are $0.087 and $0.103. So if I am understanding it correctly the most you will save is $0.103/kWh, plus the various other charges like distribution and transmission fees that are a few cents per kWh.

Technically, the home insurance will have to cover the repair on your solar panels as well. Sometimes when they see it, they will adjust premiums. Probably not a large number as its a small percentage of the cost to replace.

This makes solar more difficult to pay off if you can't use ULO.

If you are charging EVs with any reasonable monthly distance, that ULO is going to make a small dent on your total electricity charges compared to tiered or TOU. I saved quite a bit each month going from tiered to TOU - then a rough calculation showed I can save another $20 a month by starting charging Teslas and all washers after 11pm - including weekends. Of course to get there, you need to have your whole house on LED lights with dimmers and get appliances with built in wifi or timers. Basically only HVAC and refrigerator is the only thing drawing power at the bad times - which you can further reduce a few pennies by a few tricks with the thermostat settings and not opening fridges when its expensive.

 

[Calliope]

Of course to get there, you need to have your whole house on LED lights with dimmers and get appliances with built in wifi or timers. Basically only HVAC and refrigerator is the only thing drawing power at the bad times - which you can further reduce a few pennies by a few tricks with the thermostat settings and not opening fridges when its expensive.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, because that's not really the situation. I can save about $20 a month without any change to my electricity use patterns - at least that's what my calculations show applying the ULO prices to my current electricity usage by hour.

 

[IndyToronto]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, because that's not really the situation. I can save about $20 a month without any change to my electricity use patterns - at least that's what my calculations show applying the ULO prices to my current electricity usage by hour.

Actually, I'm serious. My wife has given me the task of moving the wet laundry into the drier every night at midnight. Because dishwasher has wifi and is programmed to start after 11pm. I really mean that bunching most electricity use after 11pm will safe real cash with ULO. I suspect the dryer is only going t be about $1 a month with the midnight start (That might mean $12 a year - lol). At some point we'll probably just give up with the midnight drying. Our Teslas used to start at 7pm to be ready by 7am, with TOU now it's starting at 11pm instead. Years ago, when LED bulbs were expensive, I noticed switching the whole house to LED bulbs gave a noticeable reduction. We have many potlights and chandeliers with many bulbs each room, so it's not a surprise.

There is a trick with the AC to cool down 2C below before higher cost time kicks in and set thermometer 2C higher at higher cost time. We don't have enough data to show if the AC is shut down long enough during the most expensive time to make a difference. This is more of a game by the wife to see how to drive prices down than any real dollar goals. (FWIW, we were already doing well with TOU, the ULO will probably kick $15 a month off based on past usage, but might be $20 with the shift from 7pm to 11pm for the EV charging, we just switched so we will know in two months).

I also start my 3D printing after 11pm as well (up till 5 at once).

 

[wayner]

Our Teslas used to start at 7pm to be ready by 7am, with TOU now it's starting at 11pm instead.

Why start at 11? Optimal time to charge, at least when it gets colder, is just before you leave - but you would want to be done by 7am. This way the battery will be warm and you will have full regen. So start charging at 4 or 5am. Or use the Departure feature and set to 7am. But I guess that is trickier to do when you have multiple Teslas.

 

[UncleCreepy]

Optimal time to charge, at least when it gets colder, is just before you leave

That depends on what you are trying to optimize. If you want to minimize energy usage, it might be better to charge the battery while it's still warm (or at least warmer than a cold-soaked battery at 4 a.m.). When I start charging in cold weather, I usually use 1-2 kWh just to heat the battery before charging starts. That can be avoided if the car is on the road for long enough before arriving at home.
But point taken: if you want a warm battery when you leave, it's better to charge right before you leave.

 

[wayner]

Agreed, but then you should charge right after you get home, not hours later at 11 - assuming that most people would be home by 6 or so.

But having a warm battery will mean that your car uses less energy while driving. It may take a bit more to charge that day, when the battery is cold, but then you should have to charge less on the next day since your car won't have consumed as much net energy from the battery. So it is a matter of pick your poison.

 

[IndyToronto]

Why start at 11? Optimal time to charge, at least when it gets colder, is just before you leave - but you would want to be done by 7am. This way the battery will be warm and you will have full regen. So start charging at 4 or 5am. Or use the Departure feature and set to 7am. But I guess that is trickier to do when you have multiple Teslas.

The tricky part is I setup a 6 gauge cabling from main breaker box to an auxiliary breaker box in garage. There’s 2 14-50 receptacles and each has a 40amp circuit breaker. However they are connected to a 60amp breaker in main. So I can’t charge both at 32amps or it will trip the 60amp breaker.

At first I have one scheduled to leave at 7am and the second car to start at 11pm (used to be 7pm with TOU, but I switched to ULO).

But depending on how much battery was left, they could overlap, so now I have both charging limited to 24amps and leaving at 7am.

Thinking of replacing the 6 gauge with a 3 gauge cabling and then changing to a 80amp breaker at main. But it’s too much trouble to bring an electrician in. I’m just going to leave them as is for now.

At 6kw 24amp charging, it’s not difficult to use all 8hrs between 11pm and 7am to charge.

 

[Calliope]

I charge my battery beginning at 1 am - chosen mostly because it would be after any other large electricity draw, in case I was still doing laundry at 11 pm before bed. Very little thought went into it, but it seems to be working. In the winter when it prepares the car for my 8 am departure, it's drawing from the house, not the battery. Maybe I should change it to 3 am or 4 am, to be closer to my time of departure.

 

[Calliope]

I suspect the dryer is only going t be about $1 a month with the midnight start (That might mean $12 a year - lol). At some point we'll probably just give up with the midnight drying

Yes, I'm not saying more couldn't be saved by switching more things to overnight, but not enough to make the extra work worthwhile.

 

[GoldenBasis]

The tricky part is I setup a 6 gauge cabling from main breaker box to an auxiliary breaker box in garage. There’s 2 14-50 receptacles and each has a 40amp circuit breaker. However they are connected to a 60amp breaker in main. So I can’t charge both at 32amps or it will trip the 60amp breaker.

At first I have one scheduled to leave at 7am and the second car to start at 11pm (used to be 7pm with TOU, but I switched to ULO).

But depending on how much battery was left, they could overlap, so now I have both charging limited to 24amps and leaving at 7am.

Thinking of replacing the 6 gauge with a 3 gauge cabling and then changing to a 80amp breaker at main. But it’s too much trouble to bring an electrician in. I’m just going to leave them as is for now.

At 6kw 24amp charging, it’s not difficult to use all 8hrs between 11pm and 7am to charge.

I am sure you have considered alternatives but just to give you my own experience with the same situation as you. I started with one Tesla and added a second one later. I had a Gen2 Wall connector on 50A breaker and a 6-50 receptacle also on a 50A breaker. Both were fed from sub-panel with 60A total. I was doing the non-overlapping scheduled charge times at night so that the max draw on the panel would be OK.
Finally I splurged and bought two new gen3 Tesla Wall Connectors (last month) and reused the two 50A breakers. I setup load sharing in the Tesla chargers so that the maximum draw is 40A per charger and 48A total combined. This works very nice and adjusts the charging current dynamically so that the 48A is never exceeded. As one car finishes the other slowly ramps up to full power.
Yes it is a bit of cost but I found it well worth it not to mention that the Gen3 chargers are so much nicer (studier, better looking (IMO), integration with app, better weather proof) and so much easier to install.

BTW, I have a used Gen2 Wall connector (Elon Signature black series) for sale if anyone is interested.

 

[wayner]

Do you guys find that you need two chargers? I installed my charger in the center of my garage. It can handle 80A since that was the max charging current for my car, so I guess I could easily do two chargers from that.

But I don't drive a ton and only bother plugging my car in about once a week.

Do you need to be charging both cars every night? Or is it more of a convenience thing?

 

[GoldenBasis]

For sure it is more of a convenience thing except in the heart of winter. Could get away with every other day charging in the winter but I like to use house power to get the cars up to temperature in the mornings and both cars are driven.
In the summer we just plug in as needed which is once a week most times, but have been changing my charging habits lately to keep the battery cycling to a minimum (for example will charge at 60% instead of waiting until it drops to 40%)

 

[zknobody]

Nov 1 2023 rates are out
Unfortunately for myself I was only able to get 1 month of current ULO rates in 2023

Ultra-Low Overnight (ULO)

ULO Price Periods	All Year	ULO Prices (¢/kWh)
Ultra-Low Overnight	Every day 11 p.m. - 7 a.m.	2.8
Weekend Off-Peak	Weekends and holidays 7 a.m. – 11 p.m.	8.7
Mid-Peak	Weekdays 7 a.m. – 4 p.m. and 9 p.m. to 11 p.m.	12.2
On-Peak	Weekdays 4 p.m. – 9 p.m.	28.6

 

[Tony_YYZ]

Nov 1 2023 rates are out
Unfortunately for myself I was only able to get 1 month of current ULO rates in 2023

Ultra-Low Overnight (ULO)

ULO Price Periods	All Year	ULO Prices (¢/kWh)
Ultra-Low Overnight	Every day 11 p.m. - 7 a.m.	2.8
Weekend Off-Peak	Weekends and holidays 7 a.m. – 11 p.m.	8.7
Mid-Peak	Weekdays 7 a.m. – 4 p.m. and 9 p.m. to 11 p.m.	12.2
On-Peak	Weekdays 4 p.m. – 9 p.m.	28.6

28.6c, oof!

 

[Unclepaul]

In areas where electricity is generated by Hydro, going to solar will have little benefit.

The cost is already low, and turning a water wheel causes little pollution.