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Ontario overnight ultra low rate announced
- Thread starter wayner
- Start date
Hydro One seem to have finally got their act together and launched ULO details plus a calculator - Hydro One
We drive around 40,000km per year, always charge at night and are currently on the time of use plan; our daytime and evening use isn't excessive at all (our on-peak and mid-peak combined is 20% of our overall usage). The calculator tells me we'd be worse off with ULO by around $20 per month. Makes me wonder who it would be suitable for, seems pretty clear it's NOT for heavily used EVs, just some, even though the waffle says:
We drive around 40,000km per year, always charge at night and are currently on the time of use plan; our daytime and evening use isn't excessive at all (our on-peak and mid-peak combined is 20% of our overall usage). The calculator tells me we'd be worse off with ULO by around $20 per month. Makes me wonder who it would be suitable for, seems pretty clear it's NOT for heavily used EVs, just some, even though the waffle says:
I kinda guessed this would be the outcome - they've been forced by some well-meant policy to do something, and after months and months of work have figured out a way to seem like they're doing that while having zero actual impact to their bottom line or the intended goals. Amazing work, and very much in character with so many monopolistic sectors in Canada.
Looks the same as Toronto Hydro. The one thing I wonder about is the On-peak period. Is it from 4-9 because they want to reduce demand during those hours or because they think they can recapture more revenue? From May 2022- April 2023 here are the top 10 demand periods.
If they want to shave the peak in the summer then shouldn't the top hours be from 1-6 or 2-7 rather than 4-9? Or do they want to make more revenue from residential customers cooking dinner?
Hydro One ULO rates:
| Date | Hour Ending (EST) | Ontario Demand (MW) |
| July 19, 2022 | 18 | 22,607 |
| June 22, 2022 | 17 | 21,954 |
| August 29, 2022 | 17 | 21,871 |
| July 20, 2022 | 16 | 21,850 |
| August 7, 2022 | 17 | 21,778 |
| August 6, 2022 | 18 | 21,761 |
| August 8, 2022 | 15 | 21,560 |
| June 16, 2022 | 17 | 21,500 |
| July 23, 2022 | 17 | 21,423 |
| February 3, 2023 | 19 | 21,388 |
Hydro One ULO rates:
Dutch24
Member
In my particular case it would be highly beneficial as currently I live in a Condo and have a charging station in my parking spot that is on a different meter then my unit. So I have 2 hydro bills coming to me and this of course includes 2x delivery and regulatory charges which plainly sucks. But if this were to roll out in Guelph, 99% of all my charging/usage is done off peak and that is all I am charged for, but as stated my situation is very very unique and I make up for the savings in the dual fees (still a lot cheaper then gas though @ approximately $75 per month with $25 of actual usage and $50 taken up by fees and taxes).
Wouldn't it make more sense to just apply the lowest cost plan each month based on actual usage? That would encourage you to use more off peak power times and less peak times. It makes no sense for us even though we charge 2 EV's to set our charging time to ULow times since the on-peak rates are so high with this plan. Now our EV's charge starting at 7PM. It would be easy to start at 11PM but these rates do nothing to encourage us to do this.
Why wouldn't these rates encourage you to start at 11 if you went to ULO? You would be saving $0.05/kwh. Yes it is higher from 5-9, but that may be offset by the savings overnight. But that may depend on how much electricity you use from 7-9pm on weekday nights as there is a huge rate differential there of $0.166/kWh higher under ULO, plus a $0.14/kWh from 5-7.
I got my hourly usage from Toronto Hydro and I save a bit with ULO using my usage data from earlier this year.
By the way, why wouldn't you always charge overnight? Even well before the ULO rate appeared I charged my car around 5am. The best time to charge your car is in a low cost time, just before you plan to use it, at least in winter. So if you leave home after 7 you want your charging to end right at 7.
I got my hourly usage from Toronto Hydro and I save a bit with ULO using my usage data from earlier this year.
By the way, why wouldn't you always charge overnight? Even well before the ULO rate appeared I charged my car around 5am. The best time to charge your car is in a low cost time, just before you plan to use it, at least in winter. So if you leave home after 7 you want your charging to end right at 7.
The higher rates from 4 - 9 will cost more than any savings after 11pm for EV charging. We will stay on standard TOU and charge after 7pm like we do now.
UncleCreepy
Member
That, and the calculator also has a major flaw: it assumes that you maintain your usage pattern. While that might be correct when it comes to fridge, freezer, sump pump and whatever else needs to be available 24/7, other things like running the dryer, EV charging etc will likely shift into the cheapest timeframe.
It really depends on the personal situation. I'm usually at home between 4-9 and I barely ever charge at home, so the ULO rates would just cost me extra money. I'm usually at <$70 per month with TOU, so in my case, it's not worth worrying about. YMMV
By my calculation if you have an appliance that uses 1kW and it runs 24x7 then on a weekly basis under TOU it will cost $16.14 and with ULO it will cost $15.32. That is only the variable usage cost as it ignores other charges that are the same under either pricing system. So even ignoring switching your usage, with a uniform distribution pattern you save a small amount of money under ULO. The implication of that is that if your power usage is uniformly distributed then you will save with ULO. IF you are then able to switch your usage to the overnight period then you will save even more with ULO. What works against that is if you tend to use a lot of electricity from 5-9 when ULO prices are very high. Then you may want to go with TOU.
Under TOU on Weekdays the daily cost of 1kW is $2.518 and on ULO it is $2.514 - so effectively the same, The savings are on the weekend where TOU is $1.78 while ULO is $1.38.
@UncleCreepy - Your usage seems very low. My average monthly electrical bill is about $450, but I have a large house, AC, pool, hot tub, several computers, etc.
I think I posted this earlier in this thread, but here is the savings (or lack thereof) of ULO vs TOU by hour for weekends and weekdays:
Under TOU on Weekdays the daily cost of 1kW is $2.518 and on ULO it is $2.514 - so effectively the same, The savings are on the weekend where TOU is $1.78 while ULO is $1.38.
@UncleCreepy - Your usage seems very low. My average monthly electrical bill is about $450, but I have a large house, AC, pool, hot tub, several computers, etc.
I think I posted this earlier in this thread, but here is the savings (or lack thereof) of ULO vs TOU by hour for weekends and weekdays:
I applied to go on ULO last week. Will take a while to be cut over and then will soon be into best scenario costs for my household given more charging in winter and no AC use. May look at putting a few things on timers. We don't have high usage 4-9pm so should fare better. House is pretty air tight so can use AC at night and it won't need to come on again during the day. (lowered to 21°C overnight) I do run an ERV and furnace blower 24x7 though.
Would be interesting to have ULO rates in combination with a V2H bi-directional charger such as this from SolarEdge. They and Enphase are planning on releasing products next year. With no solar, you could probably remain on ULO and charge at night and discharge a bit during 4-9pm if the vehicle was around then. Or if you had more than 1 EV. Cost of setting it all up might be a little prohibitive though.
Would be interesting to have ULO rates in combination with a V2H bi-directional charger such as this from SolarEdge. They and Enphase are planning on releasing products next year. With no solar, you could probably remain on ULO and charge at night and discharge a bit during 4-9pm if the vehicle was around then. Or if you had more than 1 EV. Cost of setting it all up might be a little prohibitive though.
Can Tesla's do bidirectional charging? I didn't think they could.
When we have a large EV fleet with all bidirectional cars it really could be a game-changer for the use of renewable energy as there will be so many grid connected batteries in the form of EVs to provide storage. I would be willing to sell down my EV battery power if the pricing is attractive.
When we have a large EV fleet with all bidirectional cars it really could be a game-changer for the use of renewable energy as there will be so many grid connected batteries in the form of EVs to provide storage. I would be willing to sell down my EV battery power if the pricing is attractive.
In the comments section of the link I provided, someone said it would, but I have my doubts. The standards/protocols for all this I don't think have even been fully established/adopted yet. Tesla likely hasn't prioritized it as it could possibly cannibalize Powerwall sales. I know Polestar 3 and 4 will have it. Makes home batteries a bit of a hard sell, esp if your vehicle is garaged a lot or you work from home, etc. I know Ontario Hydro has looked at models where they are buying back energy in this type of scenario. I don't know what their long-term plans are but I could see it happening at some point.
Tony_YYZ
Tezler Guru
Tesla vehicles definitely do not support V2G/V2L as of today. That commenter is misinformed with believing the CCS to NACS adapter will be sufficient.
Falkirk
Member
They only have until Nov 1st at the latest.
For those on the ULO, have you been happy with the savings? I'll be switching once available to me but curious about those who had a few months of actual usage how it's worked out. Thanks.
For those on the ULO, have you been happy with the savings? I'll be switching once available to me but curious about those who had a few months of actual usage how it's worked out. Thanks.
I'm trying to figure this out for myself (Hydro One, Residential Low Density). The app will give me charging statistics for the last 30 days, but is there a way to get past charging stats? The vast majority of my electricity use after 11pm is to charge my car, so if I can quantify that, it will go a long way to helping me figure it out. Unfortunately, right now HydroOne just gives me "off peak" use which includes all day weekends and after 7 pm......I'd need to try and separate that into "all day weekends and 7pm-7am" vs "11pm-7am". If not, I can collect the monthly data each month from the app, but it would be a lot quicker if I could get past information.
Try emailing H1 and see if they can provide you with your hourly usage data. But if you are in Toronto are you with H1 or Toronto Hydro?
With Toronto Hydro when I was under TOU I could get my usage by rate bucket, but that isn't granular enough to be able to calculate if you with save with ULO as the times don't exactly add up, I emailed Toronto Hydro and they sent me a spreadsheet with hourly data for the previous month.
With Toronto Hydro when I was under TOU I could get my usage by rate bucket, but that isn't granular enough to be able to calculate if you with save with ULO as the times don't exactly add up, I emailed Toronto Hydro and they sent me a spreadsheet with hourly data for the previous month.
Oh! I never changed my location since I moved.....My mistake. I now live north of Uxbridge.
Hydro One has a portal you can go to from My Account (don’t recall the name but it’s a big link once you’re logged in) that will let you download your usage including hour by hour, so you should be able to do that analysis once you do some massaging and formulas.
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