It, the 0.60, includes the HST in ON.
My latest was $0.53 base rate plus HST on the total.
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Ontario overnight ultra low rate announced
- Thread starter wayner
- Start date
My latest was $0.53 base rate plus HST on the total.
What does that mean? Do you mean 60 cents per kWh at any charging speed at any Supercharger?
IndyToronto
Member
Unless you can build much cheaper batteries. The powerwall concept is a great way to burn a lot of cash very quickly. The cells can only take a certain number of charging cycles before they lose 15% and then become unusable -- not financially sound if you intend to charge at night and drain them each day. It's much cheaper to just buy appliances like dishwashers/driers with a timer or delayed start.
Batteries density and longevity need to improve substantially for this to work.
IndyToronto
Member
I agree superchargers around ontario are very expensive today. But then if you use one, most likely it'll be during the day on a long trip where it's most expensive. The real benefit of owning EVs kicks in if you can install NEMA14-50 plug(s) in your garage at home.
My daughter had a level 2 charger installed in her condo and it seems they end up paying almost 20c/WHr (more than 2x of your own charging) - not great pricing, but way less than superchargers now.
I was in a condo for a year that had that type of setup, and it was still worthwhile to me (though lower prices wasn't the main reason I switched to an EV) - in fact, it was well worth it for the benefits of living in a condo that I needed at the time. Better than most other condos, where you not only paid that retail rate, but you had to do it somewhere else at a distant retail site - at least with the L2 condo charging set up, I could go up to my apartment however long I wanted to charge for.
My driving patterns have changed, and I haven't been to a Supercharger in a couple of months. I suspect I'll need to use one twice a month for my monthly round-trip up north. It'll hurt to see my charging cost probably double from my last SC visit, but it's what I need to do to get there - and it's still better than driving an ICE vehicle.
The Chinese 5kwh LFP battery is $2500 a pop I think. If you save 10 cents per kwh, then you will need 25000 kwh or 5000 cycles to break even, not to mention installation cost. Ontario's rate is just too low to make that worthwhile. In the UK, they are charging like 34p per kwh on peak, 60 cents per kwh saving makes it a lot more feasible on the same battery cost.
Solar of course would change the entire equation, especially if you could go off grid. Alectra is charging me over $30 in account fee alone each month. It's robbery.
This is a tricky discussion. What should the minimum charge be if you are connected to the grid? There is a cost to maintaining the distribution grid, should those that have solar panels not pay anything for the option of drawing from the grid when necessary? But if you make the monthly minimum too high then you incent them to leave the grid. If you make it too low then those with solar "are not paying their fair share".
There is also a wealth distribution issue here. If those with solar panels who can afford to spend $50k+ on solar and batteries leave the grid then everyone else left on the grid has to pay more. So the wealthier folks leave the grid and poorer folks who can't afford a solar install are stuck with maintaining the grid.
And leaving the grid isn't really an option in Canada for a year round house as solar production in the winter is very low - my panels produce about 6X as much power in the summer vs the winter. You would need a lot of panels in December and January to be off the grid.
In Toronto? Wow, I didn't think Toronto winter was that bad for solar. Yeah, without leaving the grid, not sure solar is really worthwhile in Ontario. Will see how the ULO plays out, but I suspect I don't pay enough for electricity to justify solar.
Yes, that is in Toronto. You would do better if your panels moved with the sun as the angle changes through the year and is less optimal in the winter. But my house has panels on a south facing part of my roof so it is pretty good for a stationary install.
I am part of the Ontario microFIT program and I sell all of the energy that I produce to Toronto Hydro for $0.384/kWh - that was the rate for 2015 installs. I generate an average of about 11.7MWh per year making $4500. My panels cost a bit over 32k so that gives me a payback of about 7 years.
You can see my power generation data here: SolarScarb 10.000kW | Summary Data
(Note that there are "holes" for Jun-Oct of 2022 as my system was down as my inverter died and had to be replaced)
I am part of the Ontario microFIT program and I sell all of the energy that I produce to Toronto Hydro for $0.384/kWh - that was the rate for 2015 installs. I generate an average of about 11.7MWh per year making $4500. My panels cost a bit over 32k so that gives me a payback of about 7 years.
You can see my power generation data here: SolarScarb 10.000kW | Summary Data
(Note that there are "holes" for Jun-Oct of 2022 as my system was down as my inverter died and had to be replaced)
Thanks, That's interesting, Yeah, MicroFIT was a great program. That is a lot of power being generated. Even with the EV, I don't use that much per year. But the difference between summer and winter is staggering. Hard to get enough battery capacity to store all that. I wonder how they are going to solve it once the entire grid run on renewable energy.
If you count the interest on 32K, payback is way over 7 years (or lost interest income just keeping 32K in the bank). Once the warranty expires you also have maintenance cost. Solar is tough to justify in Ontario. You will also find the panels degrade over time.
Agreed, seven years was the simple payback ignoring the time value of money or taxes. The IRR of these (-32000,4500,4500 (for twenty years)) cashflows is 12.8%. That is pretax. And I am ignoring the fact that in 2035 I wills till have the panels and can switch to net metering from that point forward. Assuming that my daytime rate is $0.20/kWh and some degradation then I will be able to offset $2000 per year from 2035 onwards with net metering - that means I will reduce my power used by using my own power. I will have to have system rewired at that point as right now my power produced goes to a separate meter and back to the grid. Under net metering it will flow through the same meter.
The income is taxable but you do have depreciation (AKA CCA) and you can offset expenses against this. And you could have borrowed money and the interest would be tax deductible, or would offset the income from the panels.
The panels do degrade over time but the degradation does not appear to have been that appreciable - you will notice from the graph above that I just had my best September ever. It would be interesting to download the amount of sun that Toronto received in Sep 2023 and compare it to other years to see how much my panels would have produced this year if there had been no degradation. Estimates are that panels degrade from 0.5%-3% per year.
The income is taxable but you do have depreciation (AKA CCA) and you can offset expenses against this. And you could have borrowed money and the interest would be tax deductible, or would offset the income from the panels.
The panels do degrade over time but the degradation does not appear to have been that appreciable - you will notice from the graph above that I just had my best September ever. It would be interesting to download the amount of sun that Toronto received in Sep 2023 and compare it to other years to see how much my panels would have produced this year if there had been no degradation. Estimates are that panels degrade from 0.5%-3% per year.
Not 100% renewables in Ontario but it could be 100% non-carbon. Quebec is pretty much 100% renewables if you consider hydro to be a renewable. This is from Hydro Quebec right now: Hydro-Québec | Québec hydropower: clean, renewable and low in GHG emissions
Wouldn't Hydro produce less power in winter as well? That's pretty amazing Quebec is doing 100% renewable now.
I tried to make a business case for solar in Windsor (Even more sun). My conclusion was that electricity rates are still too low. When the big change will happen is once rates climb dramatically and solar cost continue to drop.
Nuclear is the big question in other areas like Ontario. Although non carbon it has it's own challenges long term.
That's very true - my IRR of 13% is thanks to $0.384 in revenue for each kWh or electricity that gives you $4500/yr in revenue. If you cut the revenue in half, which is a $0.192/kWh it drops the IRR to 3.5% if using 20 years of revenue as the payback. If you used $0.192/kWh in the first year and grew the electricity price by 2% per year then the IRR goes up to 5.3%
Solar panels would make more sense if electricity prices increased. But the Ontario government doesn't let electricity prices increase - once prices go up people bitch and moan and they subsidize electricity prices. So we pay out of our left pocket called "Taxes", rather than our right pocket called "Electricity bill" and reduce the incentive to conserve or to generate our own power.
IndyToronto
Member
I looked into the solar installations - they have a map of existing installations and what power they are currently generating - unfortunately I checked in Feb(?) when we were still not out of winter, and the numbers appear to be < 1/5th daily of the supposed peak summer numbers in their brochure. Kept trying to make the math work - especially with ability to use timers on big appliances including Teslas and the Ultra Low rate - it was impossible to make the numbers work. If I'm in UltraLow, does this mean that I can sell the solar power back to the grid at the highest tier for the Ultra Low Rate?
And I didn't even get the home insurance premiums increase yet. With Ultra Low, it's difficult to pay for the solar install.
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