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Out of warranty concerns about Tesla

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#421
This is really confusing and frustrating that we have to go higher up to check on ESA policy.

How are people who drive more than 25,000 miles dealing with this issue?

This Oct 18th will mark my first anniversary and I have driven close to 25000 miles already so far
 
#422
taurusking said:
This is really confusing and frustrating that we have to go higher up to check on ESA policy.

How are people who drive more than 25,000 miles dealing with this issue?

This Oct 18th will mark my first anniversary and I have driven close to 25000 miles already so far
Click to expand...
Did you have it serviced at 12,500 miles +/- 1,000? If not, repairs using your ESA may be denied.

Reiterating, Tesla must clarify its ESA and prepaid service language, and provide authoritative answers regarding how strictly (or not) they will enforce the requirement for 12,500 mile service intervals (or one year intervals), whichever come first, during the first 4 years/50,000 miles. (Warranty law prohibits denial of coverage merely by not following recommended service intervals; contract law that covers the ESA has no such consumer protections.)
 
#428
OK, so I decided I would take a look at this myself just to see if I found any holes. However, the purported documentation says nothing like what some have relayed.

First, the exclusion section is pretty standard and doesn't exclude anything of consequence:

The battery (already covered by 8 year)
Repairs or alterations not performed by Tesla
Failure to take your Tesla in when the defect is noticed
Negligence (and a big long sprawl about what that means).
Accidents (and another big long sprawl)
Tires and wheels
Tesla used for towing
If the odometer is inaccurate such that the true mileage can't be determined
Salvage Teslas
Incorrect towing
Damaging a vehicle further by continuing to operate it after its been damaged.
Corrosion of paint.
Tampering
Damage to a covered part caused by a non covered part(OK that one is a little weird)
Squeaks , rattles, etc.
Maintenance/Parts

And here's the big actual list Other Parts:
 Bright metal, sheet metal, bumpers, ornamentation moldings, carpet, upholstery, paint, shock
absorbers, battery, battery cables, lenses, light bulbs, sealed beams, glass (e.g., windshield),
wheels, interior trim, body seals and gaskets (e.g., weather stripping); and
o Removable soft tops, removable hard tops, glass, plastic, framing, cables, or seals;

Notice the part about soft tops. This was also written for the roadster.


As far as I can tell, this ESA covers pretty much everything.
Some of those parts listed in the Other Parts section would be covered by the original warranty but all the rest of the items excluded already wouldn't be covered.





Next, it says:

"The Owner’s Manual includes specific recommendations regarding the use, operations, and maintenanceof the Vehicle. To maintain the validity of this Vehicle ESA, You must follow correct operationsprocedures and have Your Vehicle serviced as recommended by Tesla. "

Except the owners manual has NO recommended services or service intervals. None. Someone please point it out to me because I looked at every page. The only mention of the 12 month 12,500 service is on page 41 under the warranty section:
  2. In addition to the above exclusions and limitations, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty does notcover any of the following:





  • Maintenance services, including, but not limited to, the following:
    • Standard 12 month or 12,500 mile service and diagnostics checks;
    • Wheel alignment or balancing;
    • Appearance care (such as cleaning and polishing); and
    • Expendable maintenance items (such as wiper blades/inserts, brake pads/linings, filters,etc.).





But this is *not* under a recommended or required service / maintenance section. It's in the warranty exclusion section. It says these regular services aren't covered by the warranty. But it doesn't say those services are required.

In order for it to be required, it must be listed in a section specifying exactly what service items are required along with the mileage and or intervals.

All the ESA says is that you must follow the recommendations in the owners manual and there are none.

There should be at least brake fluid intervals and battery coolant intervals but I didn't even find those.

Now maybe my eyes are getting old. Actually I just about need reading glasses. Maybe they changed the documentation recently. Maybe I just missed it and it's buried somewhere but it's not supposed to be buried or hard to find. So somebody please help me out and tell me where I missed it.
 
#429
sorka said:
OK, so I decided I would take a look at this myself just to see if I found any holes. However, the purported documentation says nothing like what some have relayed.

First, the exclusion section is pretty standard and doesn't exclude anything of consequence:

The battery (already covered by 8 year)
Repairs or alterations not performed by Tesla
Failure to take your Tesla in when the defect is noticed
Negligence (and a big long sprawl about what that means).
Accidents (and another big long sprawl)
Tires and wheels
Tesla used for towing
If the odometer is inaccurate such that the true mileage can't be determined
Salvage Teslas
Incorrect towing
Damaging a vehicle further by continuing to operate it after its been damaged.
Corrosion of paint.
Tampering
Damage to a covered part caused by a non covered part(OK that one is a little weird)
Squeaks , rattles, etc.
Maintenance/Parts

And here's the big actual list Other Parts:
 Bright metal, sheet metal, bumpers, ornamentation moldings, carpet, upholstery, paint, shock
absorbers, battery, battery cables, lenses, light bulbs, sealed beams, glass (e.g., windshield),
wheels, interior trim, body seals and gaskets (e.g., weather stripping); and
o Removable soft tops, removable hard tops, glass, plastic, framing, cables, or seals;

Notice the part about soft tops. This was also written for the roadster.


As far as I can tell, this ESA covers pretty much everything.
Some of those parts listed in the Other Parts section would be covered by the original warranty but all the rest of the items excluded already wouldn't be covered.





Next, it says:

"The Owner’s Manual includes specific recommendations regarding the use, operations, and maintenanceof the Vehicle. To maintain the validity of this Vehicle ESA, You must follow correct operationsprocedures and have Your Vehicle serviced as recommended by Tesla. "

Except the owners manual has NO recommended services or service intervals. None. Someone please point it out to me because I looked at every page. The only mention of the 12 month 12,500 service is on page 41 under the warranty section:
  2. In addition to the above exclusions and limitations, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty does notcover any of the following:





  • Maintenance services, including, but not limited to, the following:
    • Standard 12 month or 12,500 mile service and diagnostics checks;
    • Wheel alignment or balancing;
    • Appearance care (such as cleaning and polishing); and
    • Expendable maintenance items (such as wiper blades/inserts, brake pads/linings, filters,etc.).





But this is *not* under a recommended or required service / maintenance section. It's in the warranty exclusion section. It says these regular services aren't covered by the warranty. But it doesn't say those services are required.

In order for it to be required, it must be listed in a section specifying exactly what service items are required along with the mileage and or intervals.

All the ESA says is that you must follow the recommendations in the owners manual and there are none.

There should be at least brake fluid intervals and battery coolant intervals but I didn't even find those.

Now maybe my eyes are getting old. Actually I just about need reading glasses. Maybe they changed the documentation recently. Maybe I just missed it and it's buried somewhere but it's not supposed to be buried or hard to find. So somebody please help me out and tell me where I missed it.
Click to expand...

Lol what's left? That excludes all the items anyone cares about.
 
#430
ckessel said:
I've got the ESA, but in reading it I'll be damned if I can figure out what would even be covered. It seems like the exclusion list covers damn near everything: water leaks, failed sealed headlights, shock absorbers, bumpers, sheet metal, bright metal, the battery itself, windshields, etc. I haven't been able to come up with something that'd be covered. I guess maybe the inverter or drive unit and that's basically it. The center screen doesn't seem to be excluded, that's good, I've had to have it replaced once already.
Click to expand...

That's the complete list. There are thousands of other parts that are covered. And notice, it said shock absorbers, not the air springs. Shocks are a wear item and need to be replaced from time to time.

- - - Updated - - -

yobigd20 said:
Lol what's left? That excludes all the items anyone cares about.
Click to expand...

Did you read the list? There's only one section that excludes parts and most of them are wear and tear items. There are thousand and thousands of part in this car that aren't covered. When ckessel said that nothing was covered, I thought he was just listing an example of a much much longer list.

Bright metal (um the only way that's going to need replacement is if it's damaged).
sheet metal (already covered by the corrosion warranty so it's not part of the ESA).
bumpers (You mean like if they get damaged?)
ornamentation moldings(again, mostly from being damaged, not defects)
carpet(wear and tear)
upholstery(wear and tear)
paint(wear and tear)
shock absorbers(wear and tear)
battery (main battery already covered. Extended warranties, not even Toyotas cover 12v batteries)
battery cables(willing to roll the dice on that one)
lenses(what lenses?) Headlights don't count.
light bulbs(wear and tear)
sealed beams (already covered by body corrosion)
glass (wear and tear or it was damaged).
wheels (again wear and tear..curb rash). Even a cracked wheel will be blamed on the road(insurance claim).

interior trim (wear and tear)
body seals (wear and tera)

gaskets (OK, this is the *one* item on that list which would have been covered by Toyotas Platinum Care extended warranty. Gaskets and seals should be covered. Good thing there isn't an ICE in it.

The rest was for the roadster.

On paint, my Durango had it's paint start to fade within 2 years and well inside the bumper to bumper warranty. Know what they said? Wear and tear damaged by the sun even though I'd garaged it and kept it clean and waxed. I'll never buy another Chrysler production again. That Durango was a piece of you know what. The best thing about it is the the limited had awesome leather.
 
Last edited:
#431
What you're looking for is on page 118 of the owner's manual, here is a screen grab:

Untitled-1.jpg
 
#432
The owners manual also says this:








"Although Tesla does not require you to perform all service or repairs at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty may be voided or coverage may be excluded due to improper maintenance, service or repairs."
 
#433
sorka said:
That's the complete list. There are thousands of other parts that are covered. And notice, it said shock absorbers, not the air springs. Shocks are a wear item and need to be replaced from time to time.

- - - Updated - - -



Did you read the list? There's only one section that excludes parts and most of them are wear and tear items. There are thousand and thousands of part in this car that aren't covered. When ckessel said that nothing was covered, I thought he was just listing an example of a much much longer list.

Bright metal (um the only way that's going to need replacement is if it's damaged).
sheet metal (already covered by the corrosion warranty so it's not part of the ESA).
bumpers (You mean like if they get damaged?)
ornamentation moldings(again, mostly from being damaged, not defects)
carpet(wear and tear)
upholstery(wear and tear)
paint(wear and tear)
shock absorbers(wear and tear)
battery (main battery already covered. Extended warranties, not even Toyotas cover 12v batteries)
battery cables(willing to roll the dice on that one)
lenses(what lenses?) Headlights don't count.
light bulbs(wear and tear)
sealed beams (already covered by body corrosion)
glass (wear and tear or it was damaged).
wheels (again wear and tear..curb rash). Even a cracked wheel will be blamed on the road(insurance claim).

interior trim (wear and tear)
body seals (wear and tera)

gaskets (OK, this is the *one* item on that list which would have been covered by Toyotas Platinum Care extended warranty.

There rest was for the roadster.

On paint, my Durango had it's paint start to fade within 2 years and well inside the bumper to bumper warranty. Know what they said? Wear and tear damaged by the sun even though I'd garaged it and kept it clean and waxed. I'll never buy another Chrysler production again. That Durango was a piece of you know what. The best thing about it is the the limited had awesome leather.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure you can simply say the above items automatically fall under "wear and tear". There could be manufacturing defects that cause the bright work and interior trim to delaminate or fall off. Our headlights have lenses - look for the glass bubble from where the light comes out. We also have lenses in front of our white backup lights, and Tesla just announced a new appliqué design that addresses the fogging of the lens. If you ask for this to be fixed in the ESA, it won't, even though it is a design defect and nothing to do with wear and tear.

Glass... Remember when windshields were installed incorrectly at the factory, causing stress fractures? What if your windshield didn't exhibit the defect until after 50,000 miles. This would be a defect, but excluded from the ESA, and not a wear/tear item.
 
#434
AmpedRealtor said:
I'm not sure you can simply say the above items automatically fall under "wear and tear". There could be manufacturing defects that cause the bright work and interior trim to delaminate or fall off. Our headlights have lenses - look for the glass bubble from where the light comes out. We also have lenses in front of our white backup lights, and Tesla just announced a new appliqué design that addresses the fogging of the lens. If you ask for this to be fixed in the ESA, it won't, even though it is a design defect and nothing to do with wear and tear.

Glass... Remember when windshields were installed incorrectly at the factory, causing stress fractures? What if your windshield didn't exhibit the defect until after 50,000 miles. This would be a defect, but excluded from the ESA, and not a wear/tear item.
Click to expand...

My point is that's a very small list. The previous poster made it sound like it was most of the components when in reality it's probably less than 2% of all the parts on the Model S.
Most of that stuff is already excluded by the regular factory warranty. Even 12v batteries are often only covered from 1 to 3 years.

- - - Updated - - -

AmpedRealtor said:
What you're looking for is on page 118 of the owner's manual, here is a screen grab:

View attachment 90096
Click to expand...

Ahh. Well that explains it. I clicked on the quick guide :)
 
#435
sorka said:
My point is that's a very small list. The previous poster made it sound like it was most of the components when in reality it's probably less than 2% of all the parts on the Model S.
Most of that stuff is already excluded by the regular factory warranty. Even 12v batteries are often only covered from 1 to 3 years.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I think it's good advice to ask for all appropriate service bulletins to be applied and for things like windshield/condensation design issues to be rectified before expiration of the 50,000 mile warranty. At my next annual service in a few days, I'm going to mention things like the chirping AC fans and the new appliqué. I want to make sure I get every update for which I'm eligible prior to my warranty expiring. I only have 30,000 miles but they go by very quickly! :)
 
#436
So that only specifies the brake fluid and the battery coolant as I had originally thought it should. The 12,500 intervals don't specify any services to be performed. I strongly suspect they will never deny coverage on the ESA due to not bringing in every 12,500 miles for non specific service. If they do, someone will challenge it quickly. This is a perfect example of a contract that was badly written. They have the required section that all vehicles owners manuals are required to have and that is the section specifying exactly what services and intervals are required on the upper right of that page.
 
#437
sorka said:
So that only specifies the brake fluid and the battery coolant as I had originally thought it should. The 12,500 intervals don't specify any services to be performed. I strongly suspect they will never deny coverage on the ESA due to not bringing in every 12,500 miles for non specific service. If they do, someone will challenge it quickly. This is a perfect example of a contract that was badly written. They have the required section that all vehicles owners manuals are required to have and that is the section specifying exactly what services and intervals are required on the upper right of that page.
Click to expand...

In the second paragraph it does say to take it to Tesla for service at the regularly scheduled maintenance intervals of 12,500 miles, or every 12 months, whichever comes first.
 
#438
AmpedRealtor said:
In the second paragraph it does say to take it to Tesla for service at the regularly scheduled maintenance intervals of 12,500 miles, or every 12 months, whichever comes first.
Click to expand...

I know. It just doesn't specify what the services are on that specified visit and that's the sticky part. The ESA specifically refers to the owners manual about what maintenance is required. Requiring a blanket trip to a Tesla service center does not specify what maintenance is to be performed. That fluids section in the upper fright is the only actual section specifying what maintenance be performed.

Even if they tried to enforce it on those terms, one could argue that if you took your MS in on or before those intervals that that part of the agreement would be satisfied. It doesn't say for what or how much and doesn't exclude a visit for warranty work as being satisfying the requirement to take your MS in every 12.5K intervals:

"...and take Model S to Tesla at the regularly scheduled maintenance intervals of every 12 months, or every 12,500 miles (20,000 km), whichever comes first."

It doesn't say for regular maintenance, it says regularly scheduled maintenance intervals. It says when to do it but not what for.

A contract lawyer would have a field day with this. Are there any in this forum?

I've already had mine in 2 times in 8K miles. The last time was 5400 miles. I asked them to rotate the tires. They said they would if it was needed. I said it's needed because the manual says it should be done. He never replied to that last email and the tires were not rotated.
 
#439
sorka said:
Even if they tried to enforce it on those terms, one could argue that if you took your MS in on or before those intervals that that part of the agreement would be satisfied. It doesn't say for what or how much and doesn't exclude a visit for warranty work as being satisfying the requirement to take your MS in every 12.5K intervals:
Click to expand...

You make an excellent point. I have taken my car into the service center within the mileage and time stipulations, just not specifically for my annual service appointment - it was for other warranty items.

Also, my tires have not been rotated in the last 10,000 miles or so. I've taken the car to the service center for the rotation, but each of the last two times they told me the wear is dead even and there is no need to rotate the tires. But I brought the car in! :)
 
#440
sorka said:
So that only specifies the brake fluid and the battery coolant as I had originally thought it should. The 12,500 intervals don't specify any services to be performed. I strongly suspect they will never deny coverage on the ESA due to not bringing in every 12,500 miles for non specific service. If they do, someone will challenge it quickly. This is a perfect example of a contract that was badly written. They have the required section that all vehicles owners manuals are required to have and that is the section specifying exactly what services and intervals are required on the upper right of that page.
Click to expand...
I always love it when non-lawyers opine on stuff they know nothing about.

But sure, Sorka, go forth and be our guinea pig! :)
 
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