Out of warranty concerns about Tesla

[apacheguy]

Solution to Out of Warranty Concerns

Guys this thread certainly doesn't seem to be headed anywhere productive. Why don't we focus on suggesting solutions? I'll go first and reiterate what I've said before:

1. Targeted service. If the gateway on the MCU is shot, but the rest of it is working, then only charge the customer for labor + the broken part, not the entire MCU.

2. Make diagnostic data more readily available to the owner so there isn't a perception that we are stuck with taking it into a Tesla SvC.

3. Default to refurbished/remanufactured parts to bring down costs.

 

[rxlawdude]

I fail to follow your logic. There is no "free" service under the ESA because we paid for said ESA... Tesla did give him free service above and beyond what he was entitled to under the policy, and the 2nd time they gave him what was promised under the written policy and no more.

You've just proved my point. Sure, you paid for the ESA. If you read the contract and terms, and yet still expect Tesla to waive a very clear provision, it seems you are wishin' and a hopin' that Tesla will ignore the service interval requirement if/when you have a big ticket repair under the ESA. I recommend not doing so, not because I don't believe Tesla to be a stand up company, but because corporations (including Tesla) don't pay their attorneys to write contracts with terms that they never intend to enforce.

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Guys this thread certainly doesn't seem to be headed anywhere productive. Why don't we focus on suggesting solutions? I'll go first and reiterate what I've said before:

1. Targeted service. If the gateway on the MCU is shot, but the rest of it is working, then only charge the customer for labor + the broken part, not the entire MCU.

2. Make diagnostic data more readily available to the owner so there isn't a perception that we are stuck with taking it into a Tesla SvC.

3. Default to refurbished/remanufactured parts to bring down costs.

All of these are very reasonable suggestions. The thread has taken on the fact that Tesla, depending on who, when, and where, frequently ignores their own policies and delights their customers by going beyond expectations. This is a wonderful phenomenon, but alas, with the pressures of Wall Street, not one destined to go on indefinitely. That's why Tesla needs to officially change the wording of their ESA and service interval recommendations, or at least ensure that all personnel are properly trained on policies and execute them consistently.

There's way too much variation in the generosity towards owners between Service Centers, and even within a given Service Center. While this generosity is facially good, the inconsistency is going to ultimately p.o. the wrong person, and another P.R. hit could follow.

 

[Zaxxon]

To Rx's point: it has been *2.3 years* since Elon's blog post making service requirements optional with no warranty implications, and the official text has not been updated.

Blog | Tesla Motors

Just another example of extremely sloppy communication. Multiple *years*!

 

[Ingineer]

Guys this thread certainly doesn't seem to be headed anywhere productive. Why don't we focus on suggesting solutions? I'll go first and reiterate what I've said before:

1. Targeted service. If the gateway on the MCU is shot, but the rest of it is working, then only charge the customer for labor + the broken part, not the entire MCU.

2. Make diagnostic data more readily available to the owner so there isn't a perception that we are stuck with taking it into a Tesla SvC.

3. Default to refurbished/remanufactured parts to bring down costs.

Great suggestions, but poor example on the MCU. The Gateway is integral to the MCU, they are not separable. A better example would be a broken LCD on the MCU.

I think they could build all the needed diag/test functions into the MCU (a lot is already there), and then give us an access code once we sign all the liability release/EULA stuff.

From what I've been seeing, parts costs are already coming down. For big parts like a drive unit, those should be rebuildable, but also give us the option of new.

 

[apacheguy]

@Ingineer - True, the gateway and MCU are inseparable. But the gateway is a small portion of the cost as evidenced by the IHS teardown. My point was that even if they must replace the entire unit, the customer should only have to pony up the cost of the broken part so that it be remanufactured back in Fremont. I don't see why I should have to pay for the entire unit including the LCD, touchscreen, comm unit, and Nvidia graphics chip if all of those are in good working order.

 

[Ingineer]

So if there is a component on the PCB that causes the thing to fail, but it takes Tesla hiring a team of specialists who can troubleshoot and also rework parts on a PCB, you'd expect them to eat that cost?

In most cases when something fails on a modern computing device's PCB, the whole PCB is replaced. It's usually not worth it to troubleshoot/rework the board.

That's like saying if there is a tear in the seat fabric, they should only bill you for that small fabric panel.

I'd expect them to refurb things that have high cost and many easily replaceable components. On the MCU I'd expect them to replace the LCD, Cell Modem, WiFi module, etc, but definitely not go board level. (Gateway)

 

[apacheguy]

Ok, yeah I see your point. But I do think there should be a hefty core value rebate for an 80% functional MCU that gets sent back to Fremont for repair. Point being that an MCU swap should be << $5000, which is what it is purported to cost.

 

[cab]

As other have said, some reasonable items:

1. Make parts available for sale to the general public as is typical of most auto manufacturers - This allows for a few things:
a. Opens the door for DIYers
b. Opens the door for third party repair centers
c. Allows folks to see just what parts "cost" and get a better idea of their long-term exposure

2. Provide extended warranties regardless of new or CPO (note: the verbiage doesn't seem that far out of line with other extended warranties I have seen - most are NOT really the bumper to bumper extensions folks imagine them to be)

3. Publish a shop manual and make it available for sale to anyone (again as most manufacturer's do)


Initially, parts and repairs will be expensive even when you DIY, but the enthusiast community tends to be creative and a strong enthusiast community tends to lead to aftermarket companies dropping into the fray. For many of the "car guys" on the forms we have seen this repeat over and over. As an example, the first gen BMW X5 was notorious for air bag suspension issues...the aftermarket has now provided a cheaper air spring alternative. Our own early BMW M3 had a stupid issue with the HVAC controller...BMW's answer was replace the whole thing (part alone was $400). An enterprising enthusiast figured out one capacitor or resistor was the issue and showed how to desolder an resolder a new one in...that repair cost me an hour of my time and $7 in parts.

None of this is rocket science, but the door begins to open with some of the suggestions above. I expect Tesla will get there eventually.

 

[Ingineer]

Ok, yeah I see your point. But I do think there should be a hefty core value rebate for an 80% functional MCU that gets sent back to Fremont for repair. Point being that an MCU swap should be << $5000, which is what it is purported to cost.

Well clearly $5k or even $2k is WAY marked up. Maybe they are including all the engineering payback? The IHS guys already calculated the cost, so it's up to Tesla to be fair about it. (I didn't see the full report) I would imagine the most expensive part is the LCD.

Elon has already said they don't intend to make service a revenue stream. I wonder if he's including parts.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The auto world and the electronics world is very different. The granularity of the parts is a whole lot different as well as the servicing. I'm pretty sure there is no core credit for electronics, even for typical electronics. The difference is that typically you can send an electronic part to a service center for repair, while in the auto world they assume it can't be repaired and will simply replace the whole part at whatever granularity the service manual says.

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Well clearly $5k or even $2k is WAY marked up. Maybe they are including all the engineering payback? The IHS guys already calculated the cost, so it's up to Tesla to be fair about it. (I didn't see the full report) I would imagine the most expensive part is the LCD.

Elon has already said they don't intend to make service a revenue stream. I wonder if he's including parts.

Recently they reduced the costs of many repair parts (the most common ones). I think the ones left that are still expensive are those that they contracted out to third parties (like the wheels supposedly) and less commonly replaced parts.
http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-replacement-parts-getting-cheaper-due-to-economies-of-scale/

 

[sorka]

Recently they reduced the costs of many repair parts (the most common ones). I think the ones left that are still expensive are those that they contracted out to third parties (like the wheels supposedly) and less commonly replaced parts.
http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-replacement-parts-getting-cheaper-due-to-economies-of-scale/

Has this been backed up by any other source yet because I've seen plenty of posts to the contrary since that supposedly occurred. Maybe it's all relative.

 

[qwk]

Has this been backed up by any other source yet because I've seen plenty of posts to the contrary since that supposedly occurred. Maybe it's all relative.

It happened, but only at certain SC's. Parts prices are all over the place depending on where you go. One SC said the touchscreen would be $9k!

 

[Ingineer]

It happened, but only at certain SC's. Parts prices are all over the place depending on where you go. One SC said the touchscreen would be $9k!

That's crazy! It's sad that Tesla can't get their act together and be cohesive. Seems like IT should be something Tesla excels at, so that all parts catalogs are pulled online and updated everywhere at the same time.

I can understand individual opinions from service center personnel differing, but costs and procedures should be fixed.

 

[ChadS]

Once at a Tesla parts counter, when it was taking forever to look something up, I heard a comment along the lines of "At Tesla, we are known more for fast cars than inventory software".

 

[Ingineer]

Once at a Tesla parts counter, when it was taking forever to look something up, I heard a comment along the lines of "At Tesla, we are known more for fast cars than inventory software".

LOL! Well maybe that explains it. If their system is crappy, they may just quote prices from memory, and may often be wrong. Especially if prices are falling recently.

 

[jaguar36]

Elon has already said they don't intend to make service a revenue stream. I wonder if he's including parts.

I think we put way to much stock in this comment, despite getting kicked around all the time it certainly doesn't seem to be true. In their last filing they showed that service was was already producing about $75mil in revenue, or about 10% of the revenue of sales. So its certainly a major revenue stream, I've gotta think they are making a healthy profit on it too, although I didn't see it in the filing.

 

[qwk]

LOL! Well maybe that explains it. If their system is crappy, they may just quote prices from memory, and may often be wrong. Especially if prices are falling recently.

They may be quoting prices from memory, but I have seen invoices for the same parts from different SC's(weeks apart), with a substantial difference in price. Posted labor rates(in the waiting areas), also differ by quite a bit

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I think we put way to much stock in this comment, despite getting kicked around all the time it certainly doesn't seem to be true. In their last filing they showed that service was was already producing about $75mil in revenue, or about 10% of the revenue of sales. So its certainly a major revenue stream, I've gotta think they are making a healthy profit on it too, although I didn't see it in the filing.

Yes, saying something doesn't automatically make it true. Just like the "better than dealerships" saying. I can walk into a dealership of any make, and buy any part I please(obviously not if it's obsolete). Can't do that with Tesla, so that's definately not better....

 

[Ingineer]

Yes, saying something doesn't automatically make it true. Just like the "better than dealerships" saying. I can walk into a dealership of any make, and buy any part I please(obviously not if it's obsolete). Can't do that with Tesla, so that's definately not better....

And we all know that Dealerships put hella markup on over-the-counter parts. If Tesla's parts are more expensive (and so far, they are) then they are taking Manufacturer AND Dealer cuts!

This may raise revenue for them short-term, but eventually when there are many cars off warranty, the value will plummet and word will get around that you don't want to own a used Tesla. This will then affect new sales. Don't forget insurance premiums with all these write-offs!

 

[jaguar36]

Don't forget insurance premiums with all these write-offs!

Please don't mention this... I already stress about it too much. When insurance companies get wind of the crazy high repair costs and the worthlessness of a salvage title Tesla, our premiums are going to skyrocket.

 

[apacheguy]

Solution #4: Maintain a parts catalog online and allow customers to purchase directly from Fremont if so desired. This would also prevent SvC to SvC variability on quotes/estimates.