Owners Sue Tesla over Enhanced AP

[NerdUno]

If it were only the Automatic Kitchen not working, I doubt you'd be hearing a noise level that drowned out the sound system in your old neighborhood down the street. Funny you'd mention the automatic dishwasher working. Our automatic emergency braking (above school zone speed), automatic windshield wipers, and automatic headlight dimming don't work. And, if Elon had built my beach house, I doubt the automatic dishwasher would be working either... perhaps in your old beach house, of course.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Please be advised there is a difference between

1) Autopilot (a licensed person is required) vs Autonomous (no human required)

2) Demonstration vs public finished product.

"Musk says that Tesla is on track for completing a fully autonomous, cross-country LA to New York trip by the end of 2017. “November or December of this year, we should be able to go from a parking lot in California to a parking lot in New York, no controls touched at any point during the entire journey,” Musk says."

The above date is a planned demonstration.

That demonstration could be successful or unsuccessful, then you can plan about a public release after that.

You don't have to explain that to me, explain it to the 100 IQ crowd.
Even the most idiotic commercials have *don't try this at home*
Where is that filter with Tesla? They are going to get sued until they do it.
Which is a shame, but it is reality.

 

[bhzmark]

Update:

Tesla moots claim: Tesla releases important new Autopilot update removing Autosteer restrictions in new cars

Louis CK talks about Tesla plaintiffs:

 

[Tangible]

It's good to see Tesla finally rolling out part of what they sold all those months ago. Rather than castigate those who have been working on the lawsuit, we may owe them a great debt. The existence of the pending suit, plus the piling on by Consumer Reports, may have finally gotten Musk off his rear end to start meeting his commitments.

Of course we cannot know. It could be that this was always the timetable. Tesla doesn't communicate, so we are free to speculate.

And let's not forgot that AP1 parity is only the beginning of the job. EAP was described as being much better, with many additional features, all "expected" last December. We're still waiting.

 

[bhzmark]

may have finally gotten Musk off his rear end

Yeah! That lazy slacker! Finally stopped playing video games and is getting some work done!

 

[alcibiades]

The amended complaint is much better.

I signed up to receive info about the case (I did not actively join the case because of some conflict issues and for privacy). The firm sent out a questionnaire that was pretty intense (again, I did not submit a filled out one -- I just read it).

My guess from reading the new complaint and the questionnaire is that Tesla is going to settle this because 1) it'll cost millions upon millions to likely lose and 2) the press about what comes out and a potential loss would be very, very bad. Offer free service plans or warranties or something that approaches EAP equivalent cost and have anyone who accepts sign off that they understand FSD is explicitly a "potentiality" not a "certainty".

On top of all that, any significant drop in stock price would likely get Musk an SEC investigation that could have disastrous consequences for his goal of getting to Mars.

 

[bhzmark]

I suspect they may amend their complaint to talk about compensation for the time between December 2016 and when a given feature was released. The original complaint was already outdated when it was filed given some of the features said missing were already rolled out, so I think they will have to amend regardless. This just adds another feature to the list.

They amended their complaint to add DAN WHELAN from Mill Valley California. He joins DEAN SHEIKH, JOHN KELNER, and TOM MILONE.

About Dan they write "Dan also visited Tesla’s design website many times to “build” his dream car.
79. Dan waited to place an order because he wanted to have the Enhanced Autopilot System and hardware for eventual full self-driving capability, which Tesla had indicated would not be released until the end of 2016. Soon after these features became available for purchase, on October 25, 2016, Dan ordered his Tesla Model S 60."

That would be nice to impeach him on that lie that the lawyers drafted for him.

No other substantive changes to the complaint. Just the same nonsense from another cry baby misled by lawyers who don't understand how now consumer products are not static. They can change everyday through software updatea. That means harder to calcate damages when some people will have been "harmed" for months while others for only days. diversity for plaintiffs making class action harder to cert meaning not worth the trouble.

Meanwhile fracking companies are destroying the environment and moron Steve Berman is wasting the court's resources with this nonsense.

 

[Tangible]

My guess from reading the new complaint and the questionnaire is that Tesla is going to settle this

I hope that's what happens, with some reasonable compensation for the people who were misled, but nothing that would damage the company. They did make a cynical decision, it appears, to keep the order flow going by setting expectations they knew they had no chance of meeting. They should make amends, and move on.

 

[bhzmark]

they knew they had no chance of meeting.

Source?

 

[Tangible]

Source?

Elon Musk, speaking to investor analysts on April 27th:

"We had a bit of a dip, obviously because of the unexpectedly rapid transition away from MobilEye, where we would expect it to have the MobilEye chip on the board as we transition, but MobilEye refused to allow that, so then we had to basically recreate all the MobilEye functionality in about six months, which we did."

Tesla started delivering HW2 cars in the November timeframe. These cars do not have the MobilEye chip. It was during that time that the order form was telling buyers to expect EAP - including use of four cameras, automatic transition from one freeway to another, and other new features as well as full AP1 parity - in December, just a few weeks away. This new software awaited only "final validation", they said.

Yet here we have Musk telling investors that they knew they were facing six months of development.

And even the April statement isn't really true: They haven't yet recreated all the MobileEye functionality. Such features as rain-sensing wipers and perpendicular parking still haven't appeared, and AP2 is still not as good as AP1 in many situations.

The relevant portion of the transcript of the earnings call can be found at Tesla (TSLA) Q1 2017 Results - Earnings Call Transcript | Seeking Alpha The site requires registration.

 

[bhzmark]

That doesn't indicate that he knew the expectation at the time to be false.

In fact it says the opposite. They expected to have mobileye, but unexpectedly had to not use it at the last minute. And then saying that it in fact took six months isn't the same as saying that they expected it to take six months.

Indeed it is common for these things to take longer than expected.

Elon Musk, speaking to investor analysts on April 27th:

"We had a bit of a dip, obviously because of the unexpectedly rapid transition away from MobilEye, where we would expect it to have the MobilEye chip on the board as we transition, but MobilEye refused to allow that, so then we had to basically recreate all the MobilEye functionality in about six months, which we did."

Tesla started delivering HW2 cars in the November timeframe. These cars do not have the MobilEye chip. It was during that time that the order form was telling buyers to expect EAP - including use of four cameras, automatic transition from one freeway to another, and other new features as well as full AP1 parity - in December, just a few weeks away. This new software awaited only "final validation", they said.

Yet here we have Musk telling investors that they knew they were facing six months of development.

And even the April statement isn't really true: They haven't yet recreated all the MobileEye functionality. Such features as rain-sensing wipers and perpendicular parking still haven't appeared, and AP2 is still not as good as AP1 in many situations.

The relevant portion of the transcript of the earnings call can be found at Tesla (TSLA) Q1 2017 Results - Earnings Call Transcript | Seeking Alpha The site requires registration.

 

[Tangible]

That doesn't indicate that he knew the expectation at the time to be false.

Yes, it does. The facts allow no other reasonable interpretation. If you can construct a timeline that would indicate otherwise I'm happy to take a look.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

That doesn't indicate that he knew the expectation at the time to be false.

In fact it says the opposite. They expected to have mobileye, but unexpectedly had to not use it at the last minute. And then saying that it in fact took six months isn't the same as saying that they expected it to take six months.

Indeed it is common for these things to take longer than expected.

The thing here is, though, WHEN did Tesla expect MobilEye to be part of the AP2 system? Because that goes to their realistic expectations. The six months would point to summer 2016 at the latest...

It is basically an impossibility that they expected MobilEye to be still on board when AP2 and EAP were announced in October 2016. They were already building cars with AP2 hardware then. The split from MobilEye had been annouced in June.

Regarding the lawsuit, what matters is what Tesla knew and reasonably expected in October 2016 when EAP and its features were announced. They can not hide behind the MobilEye excuse at that point, when hardware was already done and MobilEye had been taken out much earlier.

No... everything points to Tesla knowing MobilEye was not on board when they announced EAP. And they announced EAP (and things like AEB will be released in December 2016) the way they did anyway. That is the beef here...

 

[BestRadar]

The thing here is, though, WHEN did Tesla expect MobilEye to be part of the AP2 system? Because that goes to their realistic expectations. The six months would point to summer 2016 at the latest...

It is basically an impossibility that they expected MobilEye to be still on board when AP2 and EAP were announced in October 2016. They were already building cars with AP2 hardware then. The split from MobilEye had been annouced in June.

Regarding the lawsuit, what matters is what Tesla knew and reasonably expected in October 2016 when EAP and its features were announced. They can not hide behind the MobilEye excuse at that point, when hardware was already done and MobilEye had been taken out much earlier.

No... everything points to Tesla knowing MobilEye was not on board when they announced EAP. And they announced EAP (and things like AEB will be released in December 2016) the way they did anyway. That is the beef here...

I have to agree with you. The thing here is in October they had to know they were still way too far behind that they were not delivering the full functionally in December yet they let it ride because they wanted the Q4 sales. Companies need to held accountable for their promises. If no action is taken it would allow companies to keep using these deceptive practices. Its apparent that even in December they knew they were not going to be ready by the end of the month and still no change to the wording. Only after they missed the deadline did they change the wording after all the Q4 orders were booked.

What should also be noted is why MobileEye separated from Tesla. It was because Tesla was pushing its limits to a point that MobileEye was not comfortable and a customer died.

"About the crash in Florida in May, Tesla said neither the driver, Joshua Brown, nor its driver-assistance system recognized a tractor-trailer turning in front of it. The National Transportation Safety Board released photos Tuesday that show the Tesla drove under the tractor-trailer, sheering the roof off the vehicle, and killing Mr. Brown."

That is something that really needs to be remembered.

 

[bhzmark]

Yes, it does. The facts allow no other reasonable interpretation. If you can construct a timeline that would indicate otherwise I'm happy to take a look.

They are about to roll it out and then someone discovers a bug/corner case. Or simply a fuctionality that was projected to take x days instead took 10x days. Just like so many other Tesla advances-- the unexpected happens.

The model x changing FWD hardware v late in development is another example.

Welcome to the bleeding edge. Those who can't take it should buy a Cadillac or Lexus instead.

But Tesla knows this and that's why they said "expected" --- and those who understand the difference between binding obligation and statement of expectation won't waste legal resources on this.

 

[MS16]

They are about to roll it out and then someone discovers a bug/corner case. Or simply a fuctionality that was projected to take x days instead took 10x days. Just like so many other Tesla advances-- the unexpected happens.

The model x changing FWD hardware v late in development is another example.

Welcome to the bleeding edge. Those who can't take it should buy a Cadillac or Lexus instead.

But Tesla knows this and that's why they said "expected" --- and those who understand the difference between binding obligation and statement of expectation won't waste legal resources on this.

Rain sensing wipers are considered 'bleeding edge'?

 

[Doug_G]

It's good to see Tesla finally rolling out part of what they sold all those months ago. Rather than castigate those who have been working on the lawsuit, we may owe them a great debt. The existence of the pending suit, plus the piling on by Consumer Reports, may have finally gotten Musk off his rear end to start meeting his commitments.

Of course we cannot know. It could be that this was always the timetable. Tesla doesn't communicate, so we are free to speculate.

And let's not forgot that AP1 parity is only the beginning of the job. EAP was described as being much better, with many additional features, all "expected" last December. We're still waiting.

No, this is simply the reality of software development. It takes time. It takes time to design, it takes time to write, and it takes time to test. Then you have to do N iteration loops of the above to perfect it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

What should also be noted is why MobileEye separated from Tesla. It was because Tesla was pushing its limits to a point that MobileEye was not comfortable and a customer died.

"About the crash in Florida in May, Tesla said neither the driver, Joshua Brown, nor its driver-assistance system recognized a tractor-trailer turning in front of it. The National Transportation Safety Board released photos Tuesday that show the Tesla drove under the tractor-trailer, sheering the roof off the vehicle, and killing Mr. Brown."

That is something that really needs to be remembered.

That's MobileEye's story. Tesla's story is that Mobileye wanted to force Tesla to end their own in-house Tesla Vision efforts (and Mobileye's own efforts were moving too slow in development for Tesla).

Article from late July from the announcement of the break up (when things were more mild and Mobileye said they will continue to supply EyeQ3, although not future hardware like EyeQ4).
Mobileye Brakes After Saying It's No Longer Working With Tesla

Article from September, when things got heated:
In Tesla-Mobileye War Of Words, One Stock Is The Clear Loser

 

[bhzmark]

Rain sensing wipers are considered 'bleeding edge'?

coat hangers and cup holders aren't bleeding edge either, but Tesla direct resources to different things.

I think a Cadillac would suit you better if rain sensing wipers right now are more important to you than the other features of Tesla that are bleeding edge.

 

[Doug_G]

Moving a bunch of ad hominen junk to snippiness