I'm trying to understand the merits of adding the "Performance Plus" option to my Model S order. I'd really appreciate any feedback feedback from current owners and those with experience with it. Is the extra $6500 worth the bang for the buck?
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P85 With Performance Plus Option Feedback
- Thread starter Solarguy
- Start date
Hi,
Tesla sales guy and others tried to talk me out of the + option on the basis that I am an average driver, don't take the car to the track, and so will never notice the benefit. I bought the + anyway because it's my goddamned midlife crisis, so there!
Last fall, I had the opportunity to drive in close succession some loaner P85s in good condition with 19" all seasons, my P85+ with the Tesla-supplied 21" summer performance tires, and my P85+ with 19" winter tires (Nokiian Hakkapolita R2s). Well, sir... Average driver or not, I could DEFINITELY tell the difference in the car's handling. Even straight-line (hard) acceleration was affected; the P85+ was solidly planted, while with the regular P85 I could feel the tail wagging a bit. I have wound up feeling *VERY* good about the extra money I spent on the + option.
Don't forget to factor in additional cost, though! I'm not sure that the $6500 is all you'll spend. Doesn't Tesla now charge you extra for the 21" performance wheels and tires? And the 21" low profile tires are easier to gouge and blow out, at least according to everyone else's report. And they wear down faster than all seasons. So you are probably going to replace the 21" tires every year or at most every two years. My tire specialist is happy with how I'm doing on the tread, so I'm probably going to get one full summer season (May-to-November) and one partial summer season (August-November). Your results may vary!
If you choose to take the car farther north than Florida, you may also need winter tires and even winter wheels if you switch from 21" to 19". I invested in 19" Rial wheels and the above-mentioned R2s for my winter gear.
In short, if you can afford it, I think the + is a great option!
Alan
P.S. You might also search for threads originated by "lolachampcar", a TMC forum contributor who has researched this area extensively. He recommends coil spring P85 (rather than air suspension), with some modifications, that he feels gives the very best combination of ride and performance factors versus dollars spent.
Tesla sales guy and others tried to talk me out of the + option on the basis that I am an average driver, don't take the car to the track, and so will never notice the benefit. I bought the + anyway because it's my goddamned midlife crisis, so there!
Last fall, I had the opportunity to drive in close succession some loaner P85s in good condition with 19" all seasons, my P85+ with the Tesla-supplied 21" summer performance tires, and my P85+ with 19" winter tires (Nokiian Hakkapolita R2s). Well, sir... Average driver or not, I could DEFINITELY tell the difference in the car's handling. Even straight-line (hard) acceleration was affected; the P85+ was solidly planted, while with the regular P85 I could feel the tail wagging a bit. I have wound up feeling *VERY* good about the extra money I spent on the + option.
Don't forget to factor in additional cost, though! I'm not sure that the $6500 is all you'll spend. Doesn't Tesla now charge you extra for the 21" performance wheels and tires? And the 21" low profile tires are easier to gouge and blow out, at least according to everyone else's report. And they wear down faster than all seasons. So you are probably going to replace the 21" tires every year or at most every two years. My tire specialist is happy with how I'm doing on the tread, so I'm probably going to get one full summer season (May-to-November) and one partial summer season (August-November). Your results may vary!
If you choose to take the car farther north than Florida, you may also need winter tires and even winter wheels if you switch from 21" to 19". I invested in 19" Rial wheels and the above-mentioned R2s for my winter gear.
In short, if you can afford it, I think the + is a great option!
Alan
P.S. You might also search for threads originated by "lolachampcar", a TMC forum contributor who has researched this area extensively. He recommends coil spring P85 (rather than air suspension), with some modifications, that he feels gives the very best combination of ride and performance factors versus dollars spent.
Thanks Pollux,
I've already rationalized the P85 with 21" tires so adding the + is the next and final leap. The Model S is kind of a second midlife crisis. I've owned and loved my 95 Acura NSX for the last 10 years and have just convinced myself that the Model S is calling my name so loudly that I'll sell my baby that I said I would never part with to buy it. Another one of those life lessons, never say never! We also have a reservation for a Model X (R#4645) placed last October and fully expect we will be lucky to see it by the end of 2015. My OCD with Tesla has gotten the better of me and I just have to have one sooner. So it looks like Mike's Red Sled NSX will become a Model S P85+ Red Sled:biggrin:
Thanks for the comments on the winter tires, I do need to consider that.
I've already rationalized the P85 with 21" tires so adding the + is the next and final leap. The Model S is kind of a second midlife crisis. I've owned and loved my 95 Acura NSX for the last 10 years and have just convinced myself that the Model S is calling my name so loudly that I'll sell my baby that I said I would never part with to buy it. Another one of those life lessons, never say never! We also have a reservation for a Model X (R#4645) placed last October and fully expect we will be lucky to see it by the end of 2015. My OCD with Tesla has gotten the better of me and I just have to have one sooner. So it looks like Mike's Red Sled NSX will become a Model S P85+ Red Sled:biggrin:
Thanks for the comments on the winter tires, I do need to consider that.
Ironically that's exactly the same as my NSX so I guess I'm used to the trade off for the increased performance. Good point that many would be surprised by though.
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Coming from the NSX you might be better off with the +. Sounds like you are ok with the tire situation and know what you are getting so go for it!. I've only had a + loaner for a day but drive an older P85 before they upgraded some of the handling. The tail does get loose a little when you gun it and the + is more planted.
. I've only had a + loaner for a day but drive an older P85 before they upgraded some of the handling. The tail does get loose a little when you gun it and the + is more planted.
ibxspeedracer
Member
If you've historically been the excited owner of such manufacturers' sports/GT tuned cars such as the "M" series BMW, AMG series Mercedes, "S" series Audi or Porsches and if owning or driving the non-sport/GT tuned version of the same cars just wasn't as pleasing no matter what, then the P+ Is the ONLY way you should go. My vote is on P+ which reminds me so much of the feel of an M5 with the lower center of gravity of a 911!
Ok I'd like to add my 2c.
First, are you ok with spending $2k on tires every other month? Because that's exactly what you're going to do with the P85+ and those low profile rear tires. If you don't blow them out on every pothole you hit, you'll certainly burn through the rubber in no time(5-7k). And if you go blow them pot on a pothole or other road debris, you'll probably also be replacing the wheel too. Add another $1500 or more for that. If you have unlimited funds though, then this probably isn't a problem for you. Oh, unless your time is important. Because you'll be spending a lot of time in tow trucks.
Also, if you live in an area that sees sub-40 degree temperature, you DO NOT WANT the 21s whatsoever.
That being said, I just replaced my OEM 19" goodyear's on my P85 with 255/45ZR19 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 and HOLY CRAP it makes a MASSIVE difference. The car no longer slips under heavy accel. All that floaty feeling is completely gone. Stomp on it and it just rockets. It feels planted like none other, the grip is amazing. On top of that, it is MUCH quieter than the goodyears ever were. The ride is much incredibly smoother too. I'm amazed at the feeling now. It feels like a brand new car and a totally different driving experience. I'm literally shocked at the different these Pilot Sport A/S 3's have over those goodyears. I had no idea swapping the tires like that could have such a massive effect on the driving experience. IMO there is absolutely no need for the + package or summer tires or those 21s. If you're looking for grip and traction and performance and smoothness and quiet ride while making NONE of the sacrifices and issues or the maintenance costs of the 21s, then these 19" Michelin's are the way to go. Even though they are technically an all-season tire, these Pilot Sport A/S 3's are rated even higher than summer performance tires are with regards to dry traction. On top of that they are also at the top of the charts for wet traction too. Really you get the best of ALL worlds here. Stick them on TSportline TST Turbine wheels and keep that factory look going too. This is really the way to go. Oh, they are lighter too aka lower unsprung weight.
best aftermarket investment for the MS by far. save yourself $10k and just get the regular P85 and stick these tires on instead.I am very close to pulling the trigger on a Model S and I was leaning towards the P85 without the +. I have never owned a sports car and I really have no interest in the 21" tires, but I test drove the performance model and I'm perfectly happy just to pay for the quicker acceleration. A lot of forum responses seem to make it sound like the P without the + is not that great of an idea. This thread is still giving me that feeling.
read my post just above yours. I completely disagree. I dont see the value in the + package at all. You can get all the benefit of the + package by simply putting better tires on the 19s. Save yourself $10k. Trust me. Apparently you missed the ever expanding number of posts on these forums from the members selling their 21s and downgrading to 19s because of the very very very high cost of maintenance and their high susceptibility to blowouts and damage to the rims and how they don't want to be sitting on the side of the highway again with their family waiting for the tow truck to come. that's even if they have luck finding a tow truck to come. there have been a few incidents where tow truck companies dont want to touch a Model S and how they were forced to go to a hotel and leave their MS on the shoulder for hours until they can get someone to pick it up. just a heads up ... you've been warned
If all you want is the extra punch the P85 is a lot of car and still a ton of fun. If you are used to very high-performance cars like the M5, and you understand the increased risk to rim damage and the frequency of tire changes (and associated cost) with the 21 inch rims, then go from P85+. If you only drive 15,000 miles a year the rear tires should last half of the year at least and longer if you get the P85 and can rotate the tires. If you swap them for winter tires then of course your summer tires will last longer as well.
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Review I posted last June (with feedback from others). A year later I am very happy I chose the P85+. Of course your Wh/mi may vary.
Performance Plus (P85+) vs. Performance (P85) Test Drive and Review
Performance Plus (P85+) vs. Performance (P85) Test Drive and Review
Everyone's description of handling and quality of ride is all relative. People will always complain of "rides to rough," "tires wear out," etc... but it's up to your butt to try out whether this is good enough or not and your budget to replace tires. Some people's derriere are more sensitive to road imperfections or the area where they live is pothole city. If your city's roads are well taken care of in general, I wouldn't worry about it. My SL runs 25 series and have never bent a rim or popped a tire after 50k miles; but then again, I pay attention to the road I drive on.
When I purchased my vehicle, the P85 was the only option. I also got the 21" rims. It was squirrelly when I punched it. When cornering harder through on/off ramps, the rear just likes to sway. When I accelerated from 60 mph, it would swerve again. I even double checked it with an alignment. I didn't have the "updated" bushings. It was just a vehicle that had alot of power, but just doesn't handle well. I got 17k miles out of my Continental tires. I forked out some $ and made it a full "+." Got the staggered wheel setup with Michelin tires. It handles MUCH better and it feels great as a daily driver. The car is heavy and when pushed closer to the limit, the tail wags a bit, but is more composed and predictable. I still feel my SL55 handling is more predictable and tighter when cornering, but good enough for a daily commuter. So far with this setup, my Michelin PS2's have about 10k miles. The front tires are in great condition and can probably go up to 18k - 19k miles; The rear's, not so much. Probably can push up to 12k - 13k miles safely (a lot of freeway miles). Never bent a rim. Never popped a tired. Had nails, can't always avoid them. Was the ride rough? Not any rougher than my SL. If you are into handling and want some fun, get the plus. If you're one of those itchy people, you will eventually spend more money upgrading it to a plus.
If you're going to get it done... mine as well get it done right.
When I purchased my vehicle, the P85 was the only option. I also got the 21" rims. It was squirrelly when I punched it. When cornering harder through on/off ramps, the rear just likes to sway. When I accelerated from 60 mph, it would swerve again. I even double checked it with an alignment. I didn't have the "updated" bushings. It was just a vehicle that had alot of power, but just doesn't handle well. I got 17k miles out of my Continental tires. I forked out some $ and made it a full "+." Got the staggered wheel setup with Michelin tires. It handles MUCH better and it feels great as a daily driver. The car is heavy and when pushed closer to the limit, the tail wags a bit, but is more composed and predictable. I still feel my SL55 handling is more predictable and tighter when cornering, but good enough for a daily commuter. So far with this setup, my Michelin PS2's have about 10k miles. The front tires are in great condition and can probably go up to 18k - 19k miles; The rear's, not so much. Probably can push up to 12k - 13k miles safely (a lot of freeway miles). Never bent a rim. Never popped a tired. Had nails, can't always avoid them. Was the ride rough? Not any rougher than my SL. If you are into handling and want some fun, get the plus. If you're one of those itchy people, you will eventually spend more money upgrading it to a plus.
If you're going to get it done... mine as well get it done right.
Pimp-boy - Quick question for you. Does the 21" rims that came with your P85 allow you to go with the staggered set-up? If so, just curious how wide you went in the back? Love the staggered look, and have it on my S550 (295/30/21), and if what you did is possible, then I'll probably do something on my P85, which arrives in 9 days!
I originally had the 21x 8.5's (245/35R21) all around which is the stock setup w/o the "+." When I moved to the "+," I bought some used 21x8.5 and 21x9 Tesla rims for the staggered setup. I kept it the stock 245/35R21 (front) & 265/35R21 (rear) setup for the Tesla. In reality, if you already have the 21" and moving to staggered, you only need to replace the rears for the wider stock setup. If I wanted wider tires for the stock rims, I would have to change to another brand or model of tire. The Michelin PS2's are bit limited in size for 21" rims unfortunately. The Continental's have a little more variety, but doesn't perform as well as the Michelin's.
If you're going aftermarket, there's quite a few threads as to how wide some people have gone. I read some went as wide as 295's in the rear. I like the staggered look and having a wider contact patch for this vehicle to grip a bit more, but unless the overall weight is reduced with the wider setup, I didn't want it to affect the current limited range.
If you're going aftermarket, there's quite a few threads as to how wide some people have gone. I read some went as wide as 295's in the rear. I like the staggered look and having a wider contact patch for this vehicle to grip a bit more, but unless the overall weight is reduced with the wider setup, I didn't want it to affect the current limited range.
I am a NSX (97 3.2 6 speed) owner for over 10 years and bought my P85+ last fall. I personally feel the + is well worth the extra money. The limiting factor in acceleration is traction so even if you do not want to throw it hard into the curves there is a real benefit to the + to me. The NSX is still a more pure feeling in terms of steering feel and handling, but the Tesla is just an unbelievable car.
ibxspeedracer
Member
Well said. Here on the west coast we can totally take advantage of much better road that don't cause for having to worry about the stiffer/tighter feel of the +. That having been said, with a pedigree for M5 caliber tuned cars you may regret not getting the +. I kinda do! The staggered setup looks dramatically better but gotta stay on top of rear inside tire wear issue and try to minimize it. I have gone with 22" cast wheels and associated DWS tires that were about 10% in total heavier than my 21". The looks is great but lower range effect not. So I just ordered 22" forged monoblocks in the same style, a little narrower width, appropriate offset and doing so will actually save me about 5% in weight while still leave me option to have less expensive and yet much better wearing the DWS tires.
ToddRLockwood
Active Member
It really depends on how you intend to use the car, and what sort of climate you live in. My Model S was built a few months before the + became available, but in retrospect I'm quite pleased with the P85. I drive the car 12-months a year, sometimes at 10-below zero. I bought it with both the 19 and 21-inch wheels. I run the 19's in the winter with Dunlop high-performance snows. In the summer I run Michelin PS2's on the 21's. The Dunlop is a very nice tire, but I do notice a huge improvement in handling when I mount the 21-inch wheels in the spring. While the PS2's no doubt have something to do with this, I believe it is also the shorter sidewall on any tire used on the 21-inch wheel. Less potential for sidewall flex. To get the most out of a P85 in summer, I recommend the 21-inch wheels.
I've owned several Ferraris prior to the Model S, and they all ran wider tires in the rear and ate through rear tires in 4-5K miles. That worked fine since I drove the Ferraris no further than that in a typical year. The Model S on the other hand is my primary vehicle, and I put 16K miles on it in the first year. If I had a plus, I'd go through two sets of tires in a summer season. And those wider rear tires are VERY expensive.
I've owned several Ferraris prior to the Model S, and they all ran wider tires in the rear and ate through rear tires in 4-5K miles. That worked fine since I drove the Ferraris no further than that in a typical year. The Model S on the other hand is my primary vehicle, and I put 16K miles on it in the first year. If I had a plus, I'd go through two sets of tires in a summer season. And those wider rear tires are VERY expensive.
Ok I'd like to add my 2c.
First, are you ok with spending $2k on tires every other month? Because that's exactly what you're going to do with the P85+ and those low profile rear tires. If you don't blow them out on every pothole you hit, you'll certainly burn through the rubber in no time(5-7k). And if you go blow them pot on a pothole or other road debris, you'll probably also be replacing the wheel too. Add another $1500 or more for that. If you have unlimited funds though, then this probably isn't a problem for you. Oh, unless your time is important. Because you'll be spending a lot of time in tow trucks.
Also, if you live in an area that sees sub-40 degree temperature, you DO NOT WANT the 21s whatsoever.
That being said, I just replaced my OEM 19" goodyear's on my P85 with 255/45ZR19 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 and HOLY CRAP it makes a MASSIVE difference. The car no longer slips under heavy accel. All that floaty feeling is completely gone. Stomp on it and it just rockets. It feels planted like none other, the grip is amazing. On top of that, it is MUCH quieter than the goodyears ever were. The ride is much incredibly smoother too. I'm amazed at the feeling now. It feels like a brand new car and a totally different driving experience. I'm literally shocked at the different these Pilot Sport A/S 3's have over those goodyears. I had no idea swapping the tires like that could have such a massive effect on the driving experience. IMO there is absolutely no need for the + package or summer tires or those 21s. If you're looking for grip and traction and performance and smoothness and quiet ride while making NONE of the sacrifices and issues or the maintenance costs of the 21s, then these 19" Michelin's are the way to go. Even though they are technically an all-season tire, these Pilot Sport A/S 3's are rated even higher than summer performance tires are with regards to dry traction. On top of that they are also at the top of the charts for wet traction too. Really you get the best of ALL worlds here. Stick them on TSportline TST Turbine wheels and keep that factory look going too. This is really the way to go. Oh, they are lighter too aka lower unsprung weight.
Yobigd20,
I think your assessment and recommendation really does apply to what I am looking for and how I will use the car and I thank you for your insight. I currently have low profile, larger than stock staggered rims and tires on my NSX and the wheel and tire swap did totally transform the car for the better. That said, the downside as you mention is tire wear and cost and potential wheel damage, both trade offs I find acceptable for my "toy" car that is not my daily driver. Fast forward to my Tesla order which will replace the "toy" car but also be my daily driver and I'm leaning toward the P85 with stock 19" wheels and then swapping them out for the wheel and tire package you recommended as well as replacing the control ams/bushings with those from the P85+. I am looking for the best compromise of performance, practicality (both cost and maintainability) and ride comfort (read= low noise and rough road surface compliance). I realize this is will be somewhat less than the true performance of the P85+ but it might best fit my particular situation.
You can do the same thing with the + I believe. You have to order the P85+ with the 21" rims but can replace them with 19" rims. That of course adds to the cost and you have to sell the 21" rims. The P85 will get you a lot of the way there and is fine for a daily driver.
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