P85D Ludicrous Pre-Order Upgrade Available 9/25/15

[brianman]

My primary concern, as I mentioned in the last message I directed to lola, is that Tesla may be headed in the wrong direction with respect to how they handle issues like these. There have been a whole lot of these types of things, where Tesla seems to be letting customers down, instead of exceeding expectations. I'm very concerned that eventually it is going to catch up with them, at which point the consequences might be much more severe than if Tesla just dealt with the issues now, and then changed their practices moving forward.

+1

Even if they don't lose in the political or legal arenas, they definitely lose brand loyalty and trust. Furthermore, it makes me personally nervous -- because if Tesla triggers their own demise, I don't know what (new) car I will ever want to buy again.

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... I sent direct mail to JB et al asking for additional clarity and stating my disappointment in some areas of how this is being handled; though have no expectation of direct response. Rather, my hope is that someone who had the zeal to help start this company will listen and embrace the feedback as the gift intended.

Beautifully stated.

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Fun fact - I just learned the hard way that Tesla employees sign an agreement not to accept gifts from customers. So I'm going with Plan B - shameless flirting.

I think if you accidentally leave a box of donuts on the front desk they won't go to waste though.

 

[darthy001]

darthy,
Less so but will do my homework before making a decision. My impressions driving the P90DL were that acceleration in the 30-100 range was significantly improved to the point of being worth somewhere around $10K (sitting on my wallet and having done expensive ICE upgrades in the past... others will feel differently). The key for me is how the Tesla did the extra 5 kw-hrs. If they paralleled in the new cells, the difference from 85 to 90 should not be that big a deal while changing the overall pack voltage by changing the series arrangement would increase pack voltage and likely make a much bigger difference. The only way to know is to see how the cars do in the wild side by side. If the P85DL is close to the 90DL then yes.

For the record, I did not believe Tesla when they said that AWD would not have a range penalty. I got a P85D from the service center overnight and drove known routes to learn that it is down 15% from my previous P+ then purchased with this knowledge. I did not for a minute feel Tesla tried to pull one over on me. I'll do the same for the field P85DL and may have to give up the $500 deposit (known not to be refundable when I placed it) if I pass.

Thanks for the blunt answer. I am extremely glad that fiksegts and those guys have done these tests for us to make an informed decision. Just hope the P90Ds gets a firmware-update soon making them reach the advertised 10.9, and we don't have to wait for a blog from JB saying you need to be at extremely high altitude with no seats in the car or something similar to achieve it

 

[kirkbauer]

What I find funny/sad is that I am on "the list" at two different Tesla stores to be called as soon as some info on the Ludicrous upgrade was available. I still haven't been called. If it wasn't for these forums I'd have no idea I could put down a deposit for the upgrade.

 

[AWDtsla]

For the record, I did not believe Tesla when they said that AWD would not have a range penalty. I got a P85D from the service center overnight and drove known routes to learn that it is down 15% from my previous P+ then purchased with this knowledge. I did not for a minute feel Tesla tried to pull one over on me. I'll do the same for the field P85DL and may have to give up the $500 deposit (known not to be refundable when I placed it) if I pass.

Is this still a controversy? Clearly range in the 85D is better than the 85, and for the P85D sometimes it's better. What Tesla is really doing wrong is announcing stuff before it's ready.

 

[supratachophobia]

+1

Even if they don't lose in the political or legal arenas, they definitely lose brand loyalty and trust. Furthermore, it makes me personally nervous -- because if Tesla triggers their own demise, I don't know what (new) car I will ever want to buy again.

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Beautifully stated.

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I think if you accidentally leave a box of donuts on the front desk they won't go to waste though.

Fact, they will not.

 

[lolachampcar]

AWD,

No, not a controversy. I just brought it up as an example of how I will listen to what Tesla has to say, digest it then confirm the elements that are important to me before I buy the product. These elements include range and performance moving from the + to the PD. Taking the time to be an educated consumer is how you keep from being disappointed in life.

 

[sorka]

Thanks for the heads-up!!

Hmm, 10% increase in power only? I thought the upgrade increased maximum current output of the battery pack from 1300A to 1500A, which is more like 15%. Why the difference?

The P90DL is already only a 10% increase (555 hp to 611 hp).

It would be nice if they would qualify the difference or at least give a 1/4 time spec that is comparable to the P90DL. Is it 11.0? 11.1? Is the 0-60 really the same or is the P90DL 0-60 in 2.82 and the P85D+L 2.88?

 

[towelie]

$7500 for .2 seconds? No thanks. Had Tesla mentioned the .2 second difference earlier I never would have paid the deposit money. I was under the impression that the upgrade would bring it down to 2.8. Looks like I'm SOL. I'm gonna try and see if I can get a refund.

 

[sorka]

Is this still a controversy? Clearly range in the 85D is better than the 85, and for the P85D sometimes it's better. What Tesla is really doing wrong is announcing stuff before it's ready.

The wh / mile on my P85D is better than any loaner I've had so far which includes two P85+, one 85, and the current 60 that I have now.

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Whoops. I just realized it says that it will only be 2.9 seconds. I guess that answer that. The website is or was saying 2.8 seconds for the P85D+L.

 

[Andyw2100]

What's unclear is that, during the conf call, Elon said that we had a window of 6 months to decide to upgrade to ludicrous or not. If we wait for a better battery, we might no longer have the option to also upgrade to ludicrous.

Does anyone know if all 90 kWh batteries contain Inconel contactors and an electronic fuse? If this is the case, activating ludicrous in such a setup is nothing more than a software update.

There is at least one post by ArtInCT that indicates that all the 90s probably have the new fuses and contactors. I'll see if I can dig up the post, and come back and edit this post with the info. As I recall, he compared the battery part number on a new P90D with ludicrous and on another 90, without ludicrous at a service / delivery center, and the part numbers were identical.

Edit: Here it is--

P90D Insane Questions

 

[brianman]

As I recall, he compared the battery part number on a new P90D with ludicrous and on another 90, without ludicrous at a service / delivery center, and the part numbers were identical.

Edit: Here it is--

P90D Insane Questions

Keep in mind that Tesla has used "same part" early in product lifecycle only to separate them later. Easy examples that come to mind are the chrome bits in the back of the trunk, performance (metal) pedals, and the trunk seats reinforcement. Using the same part for both Ludicrous and non-Ludicrous today doesn't mean it will stay that way necessarily.

 

[tstafford]

darthy,
For the record, I did not believe Tesla when they said that AWD would not have a range penalty. I got a P85D from the service center overnight and drove known routes to learn that it is down 15% from my previous P+ then purchased with this knowledge. I did not for a minute feel Tesla tried to pull one over on me. I'll do the same for the field P85DL and may have to give up the $500 deposit (known not to be refundable when I placed it) if I pass.

My bold/italics ^^^.

I agree with this. Now that Tesla has clearly indicated that the upgrade doesn't match P90DL performance I'm on the wait and see bus.

At the risk of seeming bratty (see Lola above), my complaint is that Tesla has asked us to plunk down a non-refundable deposit on something that is basically a mystery. I've bought lots of post-purchase mods for cars - Dinan chips, AWE/Fabspeed headers, cats, etc. and in all cases you are able to see a before and after dyno run as part of your purchasing decision. Tesla is entitled to run their business however they want, but I think they could have given us a tad more information (or made the deposit refundable) on this one. Then again it's tough to trust their HP ratings anyway.

I guess now I'll wait to see what results people who are first to upgrade see. Mostly interested in 30-50/50-70/70-90 type numbers. Off the line the car is plenty fast. The passing power, while excellent, just isn't commensurate with the overall package.

Worst case I'm out $500.

 

[lolachampcar]

My decision to plunk down $500 clearly identified as non-refundable before I verified actual performance.
I knew there would be a difference in performance between the 85 and 90 L variants.
Making the call to follow through or eat the deposit when I see actual results is ok by me.
I will ask politely for the deposit back but I will not be angry or threaten to sue if they do not give it to me.

 

[KyP85D]

I wonder if the P85DL is still somewhat software limited with the upgrade so that the P90DL can be top dog or for reliability reasons. There were rumors of 2.8 0-60 before the 90 came out.

 

[tstafford]

My decision to plunk down $500 clearly identified as non-refundable before I verified actual performance.
I knew there would be a difference in performance between the 85 and 90 L variants.
Making the call to follow through or eat the deposit when I see actual results is ok by me.
I will ask politely for the deposit back but I will not be angry or threaten to sue if they do not give it to me.

Agreed. That's how I'll approach it too. It's just too bad they don't publish the actual performance of the performance upgrade before asking for a deposit on the performance upgrade.

 

[3mp_kwh]

First indications from the true performance/horsepower/drag racing nerds is that it will be difficult to get the P90DL into the tens.

I thought it was peculiar we only got 0-60 and 0-100 times, from "the nerds". The 1/4 trap speed probably wasn't too much past that velocity. Fine with me, if they try better tires.

 

[MarcG]

0.2 second improvement 0-60mph or 0.2 second improvement quarter mile or both? If quarter mile, that's only down to 11.5 seconds which is not that big of a deal.

I swear Tesla is reading this thread closely and updating the order page to answer our questions. They've since updated to state:

This upgrade represents an estimate 10% increase in power over the already insane P85D, provides for a 0.2 second improvement over both the 0-60 mph and the quarter mile time, from your current vehicle performance.

Emphasis mine. Which makes me wonder, is the entire acceleration upgrade taking place only up to 60mph?
This seems to counter the assumption that Ludicrous really helps accelerate at higher speeds... Hmmmm.

 

[sorka]

I swear Tesla is reading this thread closely and updating the order page to answer our questions. They've since updated to state:



Emphasis mine. Which makes me wonder, is the entire acceleration upgrade taking place only up to 60mph?
This seems to counter the assumption that Ludicrous really helps accelerate at higher speeds... Hmmmm.

If you read it at face value, that's exactly what it says. Further more it means the L upgrade for the P85D only improves 30-60 MPH performance.

 

[Andyw2100]

I swear Tesla is reading this thread closely and updating the order page to answer our questions. They've since updated to state:



Emphasis mine. Which makes me wonder, is the entire acceleration upgrade taking place only up to 60mph?
This seems to counter the assumption that Ludicrous really helps accelerate at higher speeds... Hmmmm.

I have a post on this in the P90D video thread. I'm posting from my phone, so can't easily link to it. I won't be at a computer for hours, but will come back then and edit this post with it.

Edit: Here is my post on this from the other thread--

I think lolachampcar may be correct here, and what we are really seeing is a combination of Tesla being overly cautious in what they promise, possibly due to the P85D horsepower issues, and also possibly just bad communication, which we know Tesla excels at.

I am almost certain that in one thread or another I had read at one point that there was just something on the website, recently added, that mentioned the point 2 second increase, but didn't explain it. They have been adding information to that page in piecemeal fashion. I think it's likely that in trying to clarify what the point 2 seconds referred to, someone somewhere just decided to list both the 0-60 and the quarter mile times as the ones that the point 2 second improvement applies to. It just doesn't seem likely to me that 100% of the improvement would be in 0-60. Oddly, I think they are just being conservative this time and/or someone is confused.

I'm not suggesting anyone put down a deposit based on my conjecture. I'm just making a prediction that in reality, upgraded P85Ds will improve more than point 2 seconds in the quarter mile.

 

[Dbitter1]

If you read it at face value, that's exactly what it says. Further more it means the L upgrade for the P85D only improves 30-60 MPH performance.

I understood from other threads that 0-30 was friction limited, not contactor/battery limited, so that's fine... I wasn't expecting anything there.

30-60 is good... glad that is going to get more perky! We can all debate if that is worth it or not on an individual basis, I'm sure we all have our own opinion.

BUT... let me be the first to state that if I punch it at 61MPH I better see a output indicative of 1500A or I'll be really pissed. Roads not too far from here go to 70 MPH legally... so it is not even a rare usage, or track-only thing. It's a damn pricey upgrade for a tiny little band if there is a software limit to boot. :cursing: