P85D vs GTR - PerformanceBox data vs drag strip slip data... help?

[EarlyAdopter]

I feel a little guilty even asking this question, but is it safe to assume that when Elon Musk was comparing the P85D to the McLaren F1 it was an apples to apples comparison? What I'm asking is was he comparing the 1-foot rollout times of both cars, as opposed to comparing the 1-foot rollout time of the P85D to the true 0-60 time of the McLaren F1? I really expect that is the case, (because to do otherwise would really be disingenuous) but I'd just like someone who knows about this stuff to confirm.

Thanks!

I suspect, given that Elon owned an F1, the comparison is apples to apples.

 

[qwertzy]

http://www.torquestats.com/index.php?car_id=31

Some stats and distance traveled in meters for the F1. Maybe compare that to the P85D's distance covered.

 

[Andyw2100]

I suspect, given that Elon owned an F1, the comparison is apples to apples.

Let me be clear and say that I in no way meant to imply that if it wasn't apples ot apples, that it would have been an intentional misrepresentation.

But there was talk of how the 1-foot rollout isn't used by European car manufacturers, which made me wonder if there could have been an inadvertent misrepresentation.

 

[wk057]

http://www.torquestats.com/index.php?car_id=31

Some stats and distance traveled in meters. Maybe compare that to the P85D's distance covered.

Well, from the PBox data for the run in this thread with the P85D with no rollout nonsense:

60 MPH @ 3.78s @ 176.32 ft (53.74m)
50 MPH @ 2.97s @ 111.64 ft (34.03m)
40 MPH @ 2.22s @ 62.24 ft (18.97m)
30 MPH @ 1.72s @ 36.6 ft (11.16m)
20 MPH @ 1.14s @ 15.73 ft (4.79m)
10 MPH @ 0.63s @ 4.29 ft (1.31m)

Same P85D data subtracting 1 ft data from PBox:
60 MPH @ 3.47s @ 175.32 ft (53.46m)
50 MPH @ 2.66s @ 110.64 ft (33.72m)
40 MPH @ 1.91s @ 61.24 ft (18.67m)
30 MPH @ 1.41s @ 35.6 ft (10.85m)
20 MPH @ 0.83s @ 14.73 ft (4.49m)
10 MPH @ 0.32s @ 3.29 ft (1.00m)

Same data as first P85D data minus drag strip timer start time using distance and speed data from PBox for that time:
60 MPH @ 3.26s @ 173.56 ft (52.90m)
50 MPH @ 2.45s @ 108.88 ft (33.19m)
40 MPH @ 1.70s @ 59.48 ft (18.13m)
30 MPH @ 1.20s @ 33.84 ft (10.31m)
20 MPH @ 0.62s @ 12.97 ft (3.95m)
10 MPH @ 0.11s @ 1.53 ft (0.47m)

The data from that site about the McLaren F1:

60 MPH @ 3.2s @ 158.136 ft (48.2m)
50 MPH @ 2.7s @ 112.86 ft (34.4m)
40 MPH @ 2.1s @ 71.85 ft (21.9m)
30 MPH @ 1.5s @ 40.68 ft (12.4m)
20 MPH @ 0.9s @ 14.44 ft (4.4m)
10 MPH @ 0.5s @ 4.59 ft (1.4m)

(Google docs Spreadsheet scratchpad)

Not sure about you, but looks like I would have lost that 0-60 even taking off 1 ft.

PBox says at 1 ft I was 0.31s in @ 4.39 MPH. Drag strip started it's timers at 0.516s which the PBox shows as 7.87 MPH and 2.76 ft.

Close I guess? Took me ~18 ft further to hit 60...

Edit: Added more calculated potential data for the P85D based on 1 ft and drag strip differences.

My question (hypothetical scenario): Both cars (F1 and P85D) were side by side at a stop; Accelerator pedals pressed at the exact same time (perhaps the P85D's pedal would be electronically controlled to full power by a sensor on the initial press of the F1's pedal, for complete accuracy); A light was mounted to the top of each car which lit up immediately when it reached 60 MPH; A video was taken of this race; Which light would come on first in the video?

 

[falconeer]

Well, this is all hypothetical since in the real world the F1 doesn't have ANY electronic launch control or stability control, not to mention RWD only.

The best data we have is the P85D vs. Aventador video w/ launch control. The aventador is faster on paper than the F1, and has AWD + launch control.

In that video, the Aventador reached 60 first (by a few tenths). But was behind the P85D in terms of distance. FWIW.

- - - Updated - - -

If I've understood fiksegts correctly that time is with the 1ft rollout reduction.

From my previous comment on this thread:

So far no one has shown 0-60 faster than 3.3s. @fiksegts got 3.45s (3.17s with rollout) from his pre-6.2 100%SOC run (from this graph). Considering he managed 3.05s with rollout post-6.2, I'd say the record is no faster than 3.33s.

If you shift that to 0-100, should be +0.2s.

- - - Updated - - -

Since all car company advertise like this it makes sense for Tesla to do the same.[/B] They could put at footnote on the website explaining the 1 foot rollout and how other car companies do it maybe but for advertising purposes not doing the rollout would put them at a disadvantage in comparisons to other cars.

That is absolutely false. No, not all car companies advertise with rollout. Only American companies do so, the Europeans and Japanese do not.

Yes Tesla is an american company, but the P85 figures were not advertised with rollout AFAIK. Tesla therefore changed this policy on the P85D.

Even worse, is that the figures advertised else where in the world also use rollout, so buyers expecting an apples to apples comparison of two car's peak performance are being 'cheated'. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how fast the car is, Tesla shouldn't be deceptive: it's a matter of principal :/

 

[loco]

So you ran more or less even with a Nissan GT-R Nismo. It is quoted at 2.5s 0-100? I can't find official data, but press articless are around that number. That would make Tesla's performance numbers conservative.

 

[bp1000]

didn't realise it was the limited edition Nismo. That runs 0-60mph in 2.7s.

I didn't hear launch control but maybe the camera is too far away. Shows the tesla has incredible straight line speed. That nismo is a monster on the ring.

 

[wk057]

didn't realise it was the limited edition Nismo. That runs 0-60mph in 2.7s.

I didn't hear launch control but maybe the camera is too far away. Shows the tesla has incredible straight line speed. That nismo is a monster on the ring.

The owner said he normally runs 6.9's in the 1/8th at Farmington. (See youtube video comments)

But yeah, not bad.

Mods: Can you s/GTR/GTR Nismo/g in the title?

 

[Andyw2100]

My question (hypothetical scenario): Both cars (F1 and P85D) were side by side at a stop; Accelerator pedals pressed at the exact same time (perhaps the P85D's pedal would be electronically controlled to full power by a sensor on the initial press of the F1's pedal, for complete accuracy); A light was mounted to the top of each car which lit up immediately when it reached 60 MPH; A video was taken of this race; Which light would come on first in the video?

I think this is asking what I asked earlier, and what wk057 said he immediately wondered too, which is, essentially, do the Tesla P85D and McLaren F1 have roughly equivalent 0-60 times, or is there a chance that the P85D time included one-foot rollout while the McLaren F1 time did not, which would make the McLaren F1 .3 seconds, give or take, faster 0-60.

I had hoped someone with more expertise would definitively answer this. But I don't believe anyone has, or if they have I didn't understand it.

I admittedly do not have any expertise in this area, but I did do some searching, and I believe what I found answers the question with a reasonable amount of certainty. The answer is that the cars do have very similar 0-60 times, and that the comparisons were apples to apples. This is what I found.

I started with the Wikipedia article on the McLaren F1, which supports the 3.2 0-60 time: McLaren F1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reference to support that time is an article in "Autocar:" McLaren F1 1992-1998 performance | Autocar

That article doesn't say explicitly whether or not 1-foot rollout was used.

Digging a little more, I found this article, also in "Autocar:" How much do performance figures on sports cars actually matter? | Autocar

In the article immediately above, the author gives several reasons why American magazines often report slightly better 0-60 times than his magazine does. He talks about things like weight, fuel being carried, etc., but never mentions 1-foot rollout as a factor. He would have had to include that, since it is such a big factor, if, in fact, his publication and the American publications were doing things differently. Here's just one paragraph from the article, so you get a feel for it:

"American magazines have a habit of producing unusually rapid figures on cars, after all; always have done, always will do. Call it the unfair advantage, call it what you will, but for a long time it’s been an unwritten rule of road testing that the US mags tend to record faster times on their cars than everyone else."

This article would have had to have mentioned 1-foot rollout as a difference, if there was a difference.

So I think, based on the above, it is reasonably safe to conclude that the times being thrown around for the McLaren F1, like the times being thrown around for the Tesla P85D, do include 1-foot rollout, meaning the comparisons are valid, and the cars have similar 0-60 times.