P90 battery degradation options?

[SSGP90X]

hi everyone,

I purchased a 2016 p90 model x a few weeks ago via Tesla’s CPO program and after arriving at home realized that my maximum charge battery capacity is rated at 233 miles instead of 250. This is pretty painful as I live in a state with few Superchargers, and my range between them was dependent on the 90d battery, whereas it appears I have a 75d range car.

I’ve read a few threads on here regarding the known batter degradation issues for that batter pack (unfortunately I read this after my purchase!). I called the mobile Tesla service who looked at the car, sent the battery information off to ‘the engineers’, and then told me everything from their standpoint ‘looked fine’. (This was after trying to explain that the range shown is based on my driving habits).

Do I have any recourse to get this battery fixed? Has anyone gotten their battery replaced? What did that process entail. I have less than 25K miles on the car and this seems like a very high drop so far.

Thanks

 

[DrComputer]

I think Tesla's original estimates of the Model X P90DL at 250 miles were pure calculated speculation and not reality. I've had my P90DL since March of 2016 and have 25K miles on it and also get exactly 233 miles on a full charge. So your battery is not defective, it's operating at exactly as it should for a 90kw pack with 25K miles. Tesla has quietly adjusted the range numbers with the various firmware updates over the past 2.5 years to reflect "real world" range and not the original speculated 250 miles range. When my car was new it would charge up to about 249 miles but within driving about 30 miles would lose about 60 miles of range. So instead of making people angry by showing inflated numbers and then quickly adjusting it while driving, they have chosen to show more "real world" consistent range numbers. Is this bate-and-switch, a little. But there have been many manufacturers that have been criticized for posting "calculated EPA range" numbers on their cars and the real world numbers never come close. I too have asked service about this when it has been in for work and have also gotten the "everything checks out within spec" answer.

 

[Canuck]

When my car was new it would charge up to about 249 miles but within driving about 30 miles would lose about 60 miles of range. So instead of making people angry by showing inflated numbers and then quickly adjusting it while driving, they have chosen to show more "real world" consistent range numbers.

Interesting. Yet with the older 85 batteries no change to readings was needed. My theory: Because of a chemistry difference, and in particular silicon added to 90s (?) That resulted in faster initial degradation, at least according to threads here. So back to the OP's question: Is this a defect to be fixed? My answer: Not unless there's a lot more range loss and it seems to level off in the 230's -- so nothing's wrong, at least according to Tesla -- and said with a wink.

 

[scottf200]

G Sheet I found from my tracking of my Sig P90D X (RIP)

 

[SSGP90X]

I took a trip today and charged car to 100% prior. I arrived home with 31% remaining battery (used 69%). I utilized 48.7 kwh on the odometer.

If my math is correct 48.7 kwh / .69 = 70.6 kwh available on a total charge. Am I doing this math correct? If so isn’t this a pretty far standard deviation away from a normal 90d battery? Wouldn’t this be pretty obvious if someone was interrogating the battery performance? This seems beneath a 75d battery capacity no?

Thanks

 

[acoste]

I took a trip today and charged car to 100% prior. I arrived home with 31% remaining battery (used 69%). I utilized 48.7 kwh on the odometer.

If my math is correct 48.7 kwh / .69 = 70.6 kwh available on a total charge. Am I doing this math correct? If so isn’t this a pretty far standard deviation away from a normal 90d battery? Wouldn’t this be pretty obvious if someone was interrogating the battery performance? This seems beneath a 75d battery capacity no?

Thanks

The usable capacity on a P90D is 81.8kWh. If your trip calculations are correct then this is a 13.7% capacity degradation over 3 years. Looks reasonable to me. (= 4.8% degradation / year)

 

[SSGP90X]

Maybe I’m confused then as to what an unreasonable level of degradation looks like. My understanding of the data I looked at is that many of these batteries degrade less than 10% at 160,000 miles. A 14% degradation already at 23,000 miles seems very high I would think no?

 

[acoste]

Maybe I’m confused then as to what an unreasonable level of degradation looks like. My understanding of the data I looked at is that many of these batteries degrade less than 10% at 160,000 miles. A 14% degradation already at 23,000 miles seems very high I would think no?

Those numbers are based on what the car shows when fully charged. It is however difficult to estimate the battery capacity in normal driving, so those aren't accurate.
2nd thing is that batteries age even when they aren't driven.

 

[gangzoom]

If my math is correct 48.7 kwh / .69 = 70.6 kwh available on a total charge. Am I doing this math correct? If so isn’t this a pretty far standard deviation away from a normal 90d battery? Wouldn’t this be pretty obvious if someone was interrogating the battery performance? This seems beneath a 75d battery capacity no?

Thanks

Ignore what you read about total usable kWh. In day to day use using the same calculation method you have done, our 75D X has never seen more than 67kWh from a 100-0% drain. Clearly there may well be a few kWh 'hidden'.

70kWh based on your calculations is more than what a 75D X will pull, but only just. Clearly not the 15kWh difference the badging would suggest.

 

[MP3Mike]

Do I have any recourse to get this battery fixed? Has anyone gotten their battery replaced? What did that process entail. I have less than 25K miles on the car and this seems like a very high drop so far.

The Model X warranty specifically excludes gradual battery capacity degradation. (The Model 3 covers it but only when you have lost 30% of the capacity.) The only way to get warranty coverage on the Model S or X battery is to show a sudden degradation or the battery to actually fail to charge, hold a charge, or power the car.

The early 90kWh packs do have a much quicker "gradual" degradation curve than the 85kWh packs, or even the newer 90kWh packs.

You can lookup @islandbayy and his YouTube videos where he shows the degradation on his Model S 90D. (He is currently at 10% degradation and hasn't been able to get Tesla to do anything other than saying it is in line with the rest of the comparable fleet.)

He hit 93% as reported by the range meter at about 37k miles, so you are earlier than him, but as a CPO you have no idea how the prior owner(s) treated the battery. Did they charge it to 100% and leave it there for long periods of time? Did they run it down to zero multiple times? So it could have been abused to cause the "excessive" degradation that you are seeing.

I took a trip today and charged car to 100% prior. I arrived home with 31% remaining battery (used 69%). I utilized 48.7 kwh on the odometer.

If my math is correct 48.7 kwh / .69 = 70.6 kwh available on a total charge. Am I doing this math correct?

Keep in mind that the energy usage reported by the trip meter is not complete or accurate, and your driving habits, and conditions, can make it worse. (You can compare what it shows you used in a drive with what is reported as added when recharging after a trip to get an idea of the differences.)

 

[theonetheonly]

hi everyone,

I purchased a 2016 p90 model x a few weeks ago via Tesla’s CPO program and after arriving at home realized that my maximum charge battery capacity is rated at 233 miles instead of 250. This is pretty painful as I live in a state with few Superchargers, and my range between them was dependent on the 90d battery, whereas it appears I have a 75d range car.

I’ve read a few threads on here regarding the known batter degradation issues for that batter pack (unfortunately I read this after my purchase!). I called the mobile Tesla service who looked at the car, sent the battery information off to ‘the engineers’, and then told me everything from their standpoint ‘looked fine’. (This was after trying to explain that the range shown is based on my driving habits).

Do I have any recourse to get this battery fixed? Has anyone gotten their battery replaced? What did that process entail. I have less than 25K miles on the car and this seems like a very high drop so far.

Thanks

Have almost the exact same numbers, and my ... it's not CPO ... Used P90D is at 234 miles at Max, and 213 at 90%
It is a bit disappointing, as if I had known beforehand it was going to be that low, I may have chosen differently - but for now it's just taking a but longer to get over the range anxiety now

 

[jboy210]

Couple of clarifications. There is no CPO at Tesla. Tesla sells used cars, but they do not have a CPU inspection program or warranty (but you can buy/negotiate extended warranties).

Also, Tesla, and every other car manufacturer selling cars in the US, is required to run the same EPA dyno based tests to determine the mileage numbers.

Here is a link to the tests, see if your driving is matching the tests, especially speed. I bet not.
Detailed Test Information

 

[Vegas]

The usable capacity on a P90D is 81.8kWh. If your trip calculations are correct then this is a 13.7% capacity degradation over 3 years. Looks reasonable to me. (= 4.8% degradation / year)

I don't think 13.7 % annual degradation is reasonable - at that rate the battery won't last the 8 year warranty period. When I purchased my MS P90D, in 2016, I was told to expect 2% the first year and 'about' 1% every year after that. I've lost approx 10% over the past 3.5 years.

 

[VikH]

Tesla sells used cars, but they do not have a CPU inspection program or warranty (but you can buy/negotiate extended warranties).

Used cars have a 4yr/50k mi warranty. Battery and drive unit warranty transfers to new owners as well.

 

[Lancew]

Only 71kwh usable in X90D

I know this thread is discussing P90D but may be helpful.