Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[jaguar36]

On point #2, I'm going to suggest that we learn more before rendering judgement. This could have been an "oh fudge" moment, when they realized that the V2 P90D were blowing some drive train part when launched frequently. And, unless they have a replacement design on the shelf (I doubt it) there's not much that they can instantly do. And this probably effects a very small number of owners.

So, what would you do given that situation?

I'd be clear and transparent with my customers. I would come out and say, "Hey we gave you this super awesome V2 pack that's even better than the original 90s, but we screwed up and it may break the drivetrain. So we can only warranty it for 100 launches, after that we need to limit the power. We're working on a fix and when we have it we'll let you know"

(assuming thats the situation)

 

[sandpiper]

I'd be clear and transparent with my customers. I would come out and say, "Hey we gave you this super awesome V2 pack that's even better than the original 90s, but we screwed up and it may break the drivetrain. So we can only warranty it for 100 launches, after that we need to limit the power. We're working on a fix and when we have it we'll let you know"

(assuming thats the situation)

Alright... that's certainly an approach that will make the customers happy. Customers will always be happy to get something newer/better/whatever for free.

So.... I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a minute:

1. First there's not a car on the market that you can't kill during the warranty period by driving the snot out of it.
2. There's a bit of fuzziness (that I don't want to get into) about the performance of the P90D V1s - and whether they met spec in specific conditions. The V2 certainly does, and perhaps exceeds it. Is backing V2 down to V1 going to prevent it from meeting spec? Maybe.
3. Very few drivers will hit XXX launches. I've probably got 10-15 on my P85D. I'd never see the limit - ever.
4. I don't know that we know what it is that's failing. But if Tesla did as you suggested, every single P90D owner will be looking for the upgrade. So that's a big $ recall - maybe $100 million?
5. Somebody has talked about buy-back of all of the cars. Well, that's great. And then we can hope that somebody picks up the superchargers out of the ensuing bankruptcy and continues to operate them - but for a fee of course.

Given the above situation, and Tesla's clear financial constraints, it would be financially better for Tesla to let the heavily launched cars fail, and then fix them. Then you'd only be dealing with the small number of drivers who really like to push them. Is that unethical? I don't know but I can assure you that every single automaker does this all the time. They realize they have a problem, and they make a decision to recall or just fix as required. Usually they will just fix as required.

Again, I don't think we know the story fully. I'm going to withhold judgement until we do know more.

 

[sandpiper]

They need to buy the vehicles back. Pretty simple in my view.

Sure. And then you can hope that whomever buys the bits of Tesla out of bankruptcy honors warranty and keeps the superchargers running. Tesla is not VW.

 

[u00mem9]

Do we know the counter threshold is triple digits?

 

[MP3Mike]

3. Very few drivers will hit XXX launches. I've probably got 10-15 on my P85D. I'd never see the limit - ever.

But what if the limit is 20 launches? We don't have any idea what the number currently is.

 

[sandpiper]

But what if the limit is 20 launches? We don't have any idea what the number currently is.

I agree. That's significant. I read the original post to imply that it was only hit by folks who did this a lot. But maybe I'm mistaken.

 

[Andyw2100]

What's ironic is that to some extent, the people being affected by this may be the same people who are attempting to show off their car and potentially increase Tesla sales. I did some launches on my own when I first got the car and then again after I upgraded to Ludicrous. But those were the only times I launched with no one else in the car. All my other launches are when I want to show someone the car, and what it can do.

I would guess that two of the most popular features of the car that we like to show others are the 0-60 acceleration and the autopilot functionality. Current owners doing this is what will create future owners. As of this minute, I would be less likely to show off the car via launching. This of course, is not Tesla's goal in all this, but it is, I'm guessing, an undesired result that has some serious potential negative implications.

 

[sandpiper]

What's ironic is that to some extent, the people being affected by this may be the same people who are attempting to show off their car and potentially increase Tesla sales. I did some launches on my own when I first got the car and then again after I upgraded to Ludicrous. But those were the only times I launched with no one else in the car. All my other launches are when I want to show someone the car, and what it can do.

I would guess that two of the most popular features of the car that we like to show others are the 0-60 acceleration and the autopilot functionality. Current owners doing this is what will create future owners. As of this minute, I would be less likely to show off the car via launching. This of course, is not Tesla's goal in all this, but it is, I'm guessing, an undesired result that has some serious potential negative implications.

No argument; I do the same. But it sounds like this is an issue specifically associated with the V2 P90Ds. Your P85DL would not be affected, since it's equivalent to a P90DL V1 - or close to it. I wonder if the P100D got a different rear drive unit.

 

[Andyw2100]

No argument; I do the same. But it sounds like this is an issue specifically associated with the V2 P90Ds. Your P85DL would not be affected, since it's equivalent to a P90DL V1 - or close to it.

I hope you are correct, and the evidence we have seems to be pointing in that direction, but we don't know for certain that Tesla is only limiting the P90DL versions 2s.

And even if we determine that that is the case, that doesn't mean that in a month or two or a year or two Tesla won't start limiting other models.

This is scary!

 

[apacheguy]

Ok, so let me see if I've got this straight.

P90D V2 has a different battery part number compared to V1 and we presume it has slightly different cell characteristics. These are the exact same cells used in the P100D. Conclusion: It is not the battery that is forcing the limit.

V2 has the same drive unit as V1 and we presume that this drive unit is not spec'd for repeated max current scenarios. However, we also know the P100D is not affected: Conclusion: The P100D has a beefier drive unit that can handle the abuse.

Did I get that right?

 

[sandpiper]

And even if we determine that that is the case, that doesn't mean that in a month or two or a year or two Tesla won't start limiting other models.

This is scary!

It's certainly possible, but the late 2014s like yours and mine have been out for quite and there are doubtless a bunch of high mileage units.

Scary... not so much First world problems for sure. And in my case, the lease is up in a year and I'm already looking forward to a 1XXD. The P is kinda fun, but I'd rather have the extra range.

 

[sandpiper]

Ok, so let me see if I've got this straight.

P90D V2 has a different battery part number compared to V1 and we presume it has slightly different cell characteristics. These are the exact same cells used in the P100D. Conclusion: It is not the battery that is forcing the limit.

V2 has the same drive unit as V1 and we presume that this drive unit is not spec'd for repeated max current scenarios. However, we also know the P100D is not affected: Conclusion: The P100D has a beefier drive unit that can handle the abuse.

Did I get that right?

Or Tesla decided that the price of the P100D is such that they can absorb a few blown drive units under warranty.

 

[iwannam3]

I had a Toshiba laptop that ran too hot and Toshiba's remedy was to "upgrade" it to slow it down to below the published specs so it would not overheat and fail. Ended up in a class action lawsuit with $1,000 buyout. Kinda similar to this suspected issue.

 

[ohmman]

I posted early in this thread discussing my concern about this claim. I continue to feel the same way - if so, I feel this is more tangible than a HP number, a kWh pack size difference, or any of the other things that have been claimed. Some could say they were sold a car with 85kWh (like me) and only got 81. But I was really buying the range, and I got it. In this case, one would be buying performance, and would get it.. until they didn't. That's more tangible to me.

However, I do think it's important to not immediately jump to the conclusion that the claim is valid. @Ingineer has shown a stance that is positive to Tesla, and has also garnered great respect (mine and others) with his technical abilities. That doesn't make the conclusion infallible. It would be useful to have data, and corroborating non-anecdotal evidence before drawing deep lines.

I realize that evidence-based approach may not be in favor around here, but it's honestly in everyone's best interest.

 

[lolachampcar]

I would also think the issue is one more of battery protection than drive line protection. That is gut and not evidence based. I'm aware of huge changes to the P100D battery. Is anyone aware of any changes to the P100D drive line outside of battery and cooling?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

ohmman: NSX1992 seems to be a non-Ingineer source corraborating this as well, though of course in anonymous internet one has to use their nose a little. I find their reports at least plausible.

 

[apacheguy]

I would also think the issue is one more of battery protection than drive line protection. That is gut and not evidence based. I'm aware of huge changes to the P100D battery. Is anyone aware of any changes to the P100D drive line outside of battery and cooling?

I read most of the posts here and concluded the opposite (see above). The 100D and 90D share the same cells. Additionally, this seems to only affect V2 and not V1 (which had inferior grade battery cells).

 

[Tech_Guy]

I don't have permission to quote the people Tesla has told this to, nor do I have enough data to tell what packs are affected and by how many launches and what the limit is, but it's there.

Unfortunately I'm here to say this is true. My car was limited just after the 8.0 update and at first I was convinced it was related to that. I did lots of testing and emailed Tesla my findings. Before this limitation my car would pull around 1600 amps from the battery and 512 KW of power when fully charged, now the car will only pull around 1500 amps and and 480KW of power, a loss of about 40 HP on a 4 month old car. I was giving lots of test rides to strangers showing off the car etc as I attend a few car shows a week and I'm was quite upset to have discovered this limitation the hard way rather then Tesla letting us know at purchase about these limitations. After a month of back and forth with Tesla on this I received this reply.

"Thank you for your time. To recap our conversation, using launch mode places an increased stress on the entire powertrain accelerating aging and fatigue of various components. The computer systems automatically track launch mode usage and continually estimate fatigue damage. Depending on how launch mode is used, the computer may eventually limit the available power during launch mode to protect the powertrain. Note that this is a common strategy also employed in other high performance cars. As discussed, upgrading to the P100D ludicrous will remove this limit and will not be limited in the future as the P100D does not have this limit for launch mode."

 

[JRP3]

Note that this is a common strategy also employed in other high performance cars.

Did they offer to give any examples of this "common" strategy?

 

[Andyw2100]

I was giving lots of test rides to strangers showing off the car etc as I attend a few car shows a week and I'm was quite upset to have discovered this limitation the hard way rather then Tesla letting us know at purchase about these limitations.

So in your case what I posted up thread, about demonstrating the car to others, was spot on! What a shame.

Quoting Tesla's response:
"Thank you for your time. To recap our conversation, using launch mode places an increased stress on the entire powertrain accelerating aging and fatigue of various components. The computer systems automatically track launch mode usage and continually estimate fatigue damage. Depending on how launch mode is used, the computer may eventually limit the available power during launch mode to protect the powertrain. Note that this is a common strategy also employed in other high performance cars. As discussed, upgrading to the P100D ludicrous will remove this limit and will not be limited in the future as the P100D does not have this limit for launch mode."

(I added the bolding.)

A common strategy also employed in other high-performance cars? How many other high-performance cars can arbitrarily limit power via software updates / software modifications that are delivered over the air?