Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[St Charles]

Oh man. And I've been to the track a bunch of times too... UGH!

Pack: 1071394-00-A (V2 battery)
Peak measured output: 492kW
current Firmware: 7.1

I've been afraid to upgrade to 8.0 because I heard of such rumors. Looks like I'll have to do some more testing over the weekend

 

[n2mb_racing]

I have the same battery and logged the same power output on the 8.0 firmware. I am concerned about the limit because I purchased a showroom demo car. It likely has many launches on it, since I bought it with over 5000 miles. It likely had several launches per day. So, what about demo cars? Do they reset the counter when they sell them? Or was it limited from the demo driving? That would be unfair.

Pack: 1071394-00-A (V2 battery)
Peak output: 490 kW @ 99% SOC
Firmware: 8.0 (2.44.130)

 

[azdryheat]

Solution is simple. Refund the Ludicrous Upgrade price that we've paid.

+1

 

[davidc18]

I have the same battery and logged the same power output on the 8.0 firmware. I am concerned about the limit because I purchased a showroom demo car. It likely has many launches on it, since I bought it with over 5000 miles. It likely had several launches per day. So, what about demo cars? Do they reset the counter when they sell them? Or was it limited from the demo driving? That would be unfair.

Pack: 1071394-00-A (V2 battery)
Peak output: 490 kW @ 99% SOC
Firmware: 8.0 (2.44.130)

I suspect that you, like myself, are now limited. The V2 battery should put out ~510 kW or more

 

[msnow]

Oh man. And I've been to the track a bunch of times too... UGH!

Pack: 1071394-00-A (V2 battery)
Peak measured output: 492kW
current Firmware: 7.1

I've been afraid to upgrade to 8.0 because I heard of such rumors. Looks like I'll have to do some more testing over the weekend

And I was one of the people encouraging you to go to the track all the time. Sorry

 

[n2mb_racing]

I suspect that you, like myself, are now limited. The V2 battery should put out ~510 kW or more

Actually, I'm not so sure of that. See this spreadsheet:
Tesla Model S PxxxD(L) Comparisons (Responses)

It looks like 490 kW is inline with what the v2 batteries produce. My car is pre-facelift. I think only the post-facelift V3 batteries produced 510 kW. But, now we have a report of a V3 battery being limited from 510 kW to 480 kW.

 

[Old Man Mike]

yes went from 511KW with v3 1088... battery to 480KW after...

Looking at the data collected earlier in the year, it appears that for over Launched cars, they have effectively capped the power in Max Batt Power ON to the same level of Max Batt Power OFF. Notice where Tech_Guy's previous 511KW and current 480KW now falls on the curves:

I would love to collect more data on the P100DL since one of the curve points is based on an extrapolated estimate. All this data has been collected and discussed in this thread:

Max Power vs State of Charge and Temp

 

[n2mb_racing]

Maybe, then perhaps mine is not limited? I got:
490 kW with max battery ON @ 99% SOC
485 kW with max battery ON @ 88% SOC and
464 kW with max battery OFF @ 86% SOC (14 minutes later)

This is battery 1071394-00-A

Looking at the data collected earlier in the year, it appears that for over Launched cars, they have effectively capped the power in Max Batt Power ON to the same level of Max Batt Power OFF. Notice where Tech_Guy's previous 511KW and current 480KW now falls on the curves:
Max Power vs State of Charge and Temp

 

[davidc18]

Battery 1071941-00-C

 

[n2mb_racing]

Battery 1071941-00-C

Yeah, yours might have been capable of 500+
Tesla Model S PxxxD(L) Comparisons (Responses)

 

[lolachampcar]

ING,
Is Tesla signing BMS updates? I was surprised that they were not doing this from the start and am curious if they have initiated the practice.

For those not familiar with the term......
Signing Files
This is a technique used by OEMs (and others I am sure) where by new software updates are checksummed (RipeMD160 being a Bosch favorite). The newly updated code is then checksummed and compared with an RSA encrypted message containing the proper unmodified checksum. If they agree, the code is allowed to run. If not, brick. The public key is in the module being updated but the private key needed to encrypt a valid checksum is not so you can not generate messages that enable your modified software updates to take.

The solution is physically attaching a Background Debugging Module to the target board and brute force over writing the existing code.

 

[St Charles]

And I was one of the people encouraging you to go to the track all the time. Sorry

No worries, man. I was going to do it either way.

 

[St Charles]

I have the same battery and logged the same power output on the 8.0 firmware. I am concerned about the limit because I purchased a showroom demo car. It likely has many launches on it, since I bought it with over 5000 miles. It likely had several launches per day. So, what about demo cars? Do they reset the counter when they sell them? Or was it limited from the demo driving? That would be unfair.

Pack: 1071394-00-A (V2 battery)
Peak output: 490 kW @ 99% SOC
Firmware: 8.0 (2.44.130)

I never logged better than 495kW on my battery, even going way back to July when I first started datalogging. I also don't know of anyone who has ever logged higher than 495kW on the 1071394-00-A battery. I'd be willing to bet a taco that your battery is currently not limited.

 

[n2mb_racing]

I never logged better than 495kW on my battery, even going way back to July when I first started datalogging. I also don't know of anyone who has ever logged higher than 495kW on the 1071394-00-A battery. I'd be willing to bet a taco that your battery is currently not limited.

Good to know! I owe you a taco.

 

[whitex]

From what you posted....it appears that Tesla was attempting to improve their car with a larger "xxxx"'ish amp opportunity. Then there were some hardware failures associated with the increased amperage. So instead of ignoring the issue and possibly letting the car catch on fire or smolder....they limited the risk via software?

I wonder how many cars Tesla would sell if many of their most expensive cars start internally combusting. More importantly - I wonder how many investors would stick around.

I am not sure I get your point here. Nobody is arguing that they let the cars catch on fire. What is missing from Tesla's response is the fix to deliver what they sold, or a refund. If they suddenly discovered a flaw with a battery, would you consider briking all cars an appropriate solution? For reference, see what happened to Samsung Galaxy 7 - they are in fact briking those for safety, but also offering a full refund for the product.

 

[msnow]

ING,
Is Tesla signing BMS updates? I was surprised that they were not doing this from the start and am curious if they have initiated the practice.

For those not familiar with the term......
Signing Files
This is a technique used by OEMs (and others I am sure) where by new software updates are checksummed (RipeMD160 being a Bosch favorite). The newly updated code is then checksummed and compared with an RSA encrypted message containing the proper unmodified checksum. If they agree, the code is allowed to run. If not, brick. The public key is in the module being updated but the private key needed to encrypt a valid checksum is not so you can not generate messages that enable your modified software updates to take.

The solution is physically attaching a Background Debugging Module to the target board and brute force over writing the existing code.

If I'm not mistaken this was the big update that came out just after the proof of concept hack by the Chinese research company and just before 8.0. I think @Ingineer posted about it back then.

Edit: here's the thread where @wk057 lists the chronology of the patches.
Car Hacking Research: Remote Attack Tesla Motors by Keen Security Lab

 

[Walta]

Tesla should immediately release a software update that disables launch mode. This will prevent anyone else with a V2 or V3 battery from being penalized.
It is surprising to me that while launching too often will damage the drive train, why would upgrading to a more powerful battery (P100D) allow unlimited launches, instead of doing even more damage?

 

[HebrHmr]

I'm assuming this wasn't always in there...but there's now a note in the manual that mirrors the official response someone posted several pages back

 

[vgrinshpun]

I am keeping track of Manuals that are posted on My Tesla page and now have (if I recall correctly) four revisions on my hard drive. I've downloaded the latest one in November of this year, and it did not have this wording in it, as I checked it yesterday.

The interesting thing is that this in-car Manual wording again implies that power output limitation is applicable for launch mode only, which actually makes sense from the technical point of view.

So far, though, IMO we do not have clear picture one way or another.

 

[Walta]

I'm assuming this wasn't always in there...but there's now a note in the manual that mirrors the official response someone posted several pages back

This manual states it will reduce power during "launch mode" .... Tech_Guy is experiencing a power drop all the time.