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PG&E Rate Schedules: "Home Charging" (EV2-A) Goes Live vs. Others
- Thread starter SoundDaTrumpet
- Start date
EV2-A is the least advantageous for solar because there are more hours when the sun is up that are off-peak and more hours when the sun is down that are peak or partial peak. This means it’s harder to offset your usage using solar production because you generate at lower rates than you consume.
As solar production becomes a larger part of the energy mix, this is probably going to become more common. Batteries will become much more worthwhile then.
As solar production becomes a larger part of the energy mix, this is probably going to become more common. Batteries will become much more worthwhile then.
The other rate plans offered by PG&E for current solar appear to better than EV2-A. Electrical vehicle (EV) has to be very significant for EV2-A to be attractive. PG&E likes EV usage because it increases use of the grid. It is the only way the utility can increase revenue. PG&E simply wants to smooth out grid usage and increase utilization. EV2-A is best served by batteries, but the cost of batteries without special incentives makes battery purchases a losing proposition. A single battery system, one unit of any brand, is equivalent in cost to adding another unit of solar, 4kW, for example. While spending that amount of money, one can just avoid a time-of-use rate with great differentials like the EV2-A, and instead go with the various flavors of E-TOU available with minimal differentials. The E-TOU rate schedules are pretty much flat rate power. Mixing E-TOU with EV charging, you basically size solar for household+EV. Buying more than enough solar upfront will work best for net metering. Net metering doesn't fit PG&E's goal, but batteries do. I expect something more aggressive from PG&E in the future. I imagine free power during the day, and more expensive peak. That will make batteries much more attractive.
The bottom line is that the utilities are producing so much solar that they're punishing everybody for making the investment in solar. I would advise anyone thinking about solar to ONLY consider it if you have a west facing possibility. Having a south facing array...yes, I get lots of sun, but I don't get paid for it with NEM. If I had to choose today, I'd get a battery and sign up for EV2. No solar. Charge those bad boys up from midnight to 3pm for 15 cents a kWh and tell PGE to suck on it the rest of the day till midnight!!!
How are the solar guys selling these systems now? The IRR is getting crushed.
How are the solar guys selling these systems now? The IRR is getting crushed.
GenSao
Member
The solar guys will likely "ignore" the EV2 rate and advertise the more applicable E-TOU-A rate.
Sorry this is a bit of an old thread, but I am a Tesla Model S owner who is doing a remodel, and considering solar and/or a battery system.
I am currently on the EV-A rate plan (started in March), and was wondering, with that plan, should I just purchase a battery storage unit, fill it up from 11pm - 7am, then drain it over the day? That is, it seems to me with a battery system, the relevant energy cost to compare to solar is the lowest cost at which you can fill your battery. In the case of EV-A (or even EV2-A), that cost is much lower than the TOU plans.
Am I thinking about this correctly?
Thanks
I am currently on the EV-A rate plan (started in March), and was wondering, with that plan, should I just purchase a battery storage unit, fill it up from 11pm - 7am, then drain it over the day? That is, it seems to me with a battery system, the relevant energy cost to compare to solar is the lowest cost at which you can fill your battery. In the case of EV-A (or even EV2-A), that cost is much lower than the TOU plans.
Am I thinking about this correctly?
Thanks
GenSao
Member
Battery storage must be charged by solar to qualify for the 30% federal tax credit. Tesla's software will limit charging to comply with this rule if the Powerwalls are paired with solar.
In general, the battery charges with solar energy during off-peak (weekend) and part-peak (weekday) periods to mitigate for peak period use. An analysis should be done using a combination of off-peak and part-peak rates compared to the anticipated peak period offset. Alternatively, you may use the anticipated lifetime cost per kWh for the solar/battery system as a basis of comparison.
Help me to understand this, please.
So, if you have solar and claim the PW tax credit, the PW will be programmed so that it only charges from solar?
And if you don’t claim the PW tax credit, you can charge however you like, ie. from the grid during off-peak hours only?
woferry
Member
I don't think Tesla offers your second option (how would they know that you didn't claim the credit?). If you don't have any solar at all then presumably they allow it to charge from the grid (otherwise it would be pretty useless), if there is solar then I think solar is the only source it will use for charging (other than Storm Watch mode).
Thanks. Does this apply to other battery solutions as well? For example, if I got an installer to put in LG batteries, could that charge directly from the grid, without solar?
I am looking at a 14kw solar array, so the cost of that is much higher than the cost of batteries. If I could just get a battery system to charge during my $0.13 kwh charge time, it would seem more economical than paying for solar at all. But I am not sure that is possible...
This is what I am thinking.
If you are on EV2-A, it would seem the optimal solution would be to invest in a battery system, where you can charge your car and your battery during the $0.15633 period of midnight - 3PM, then discharge your battery from 3PM - 12PM. With a sufficient battery capacity, and through load shifting (e.g. do the laundry and run the dishwasher, etc in the morning), one should be able to swing it, so the average price is close to the $0.15633 minimum., excluding capitalized costs of the battery system And as someone else mentioned, it is possible that, as more solar hits the grid, the cheapest rates will be when the sun is strongest. By using a battery system, you can "free ride" on everyone else's solar installations.
I'm not sure the math will necessarily pencil out, especially since I don't think you can take the 30% ITC with just a battery system without solar.
The amortized cost per kWh for our 13kw solar plus 3 Powerwalls over 10 years is about 26 cents per kWh. This is assuming battery and solar are worthless after 10 years which obviously isn't the case. And solar prices have dropped since we got our system last year.
By my math, just the 3 Powerwalls would be 12c per kWh over those 10 years, plus 15.6 cents per kWh = 27.6c per kWh, slightly more than our solar+storage setup after amortizing it for just 10 years. And that assuming PG&E won't be raising rates at all over the next 10 years, which they certainly will to help pay for their bankruptcy.
Thanks, I see what you are saying, and your math makes sense given the rates today. My bigger concern is what some other posters pointed out above - if you look at the ISO net usage charts, and figure in continued solar installation, at some point the utilities will be giving away power during the day, so that 15.6 cents will drop to pennies during peak solar times.
I used to live in Seattle, and energy there is cheap - less than 10 cents a kwh a few years ago. Still low double digits today. The reason is the abundance of hydro power. In CA, solar will be the hydro power, except it is only available during certain hours, unlike hydro. And unlike hydro, the availability will continue to increase, exacerbating the peaks and valleys of net demand. The EV2-A rate is an indication of where things are going IMHO.
So it does seem like the best strategy will be to be able to store your own energy with batteries, draw off the grid when power is cheap (free), and draw on that storage when rates are highest / solar generation diminishes. Installing solar, and contributing to the surplus of power during certain hours, won't make sense, unless all solar generators have their own storage solutions, which seems unlikely any time soon.
That all makes sense, but the lowest cost PG&E off-peak plan has been steadily climbing over the last few years as solar proliferates. Off-peak EV-A used to be 9.7 cents back in 2013, but its climbed a full 50% in 6 years. Maybe PG&E is deciding that it needs to make its margin off its richer customers that can afford EV’s.
EV-A today is $0.13452 Summer Off-Peak.That all makes sense, but the lowest cost PG&E off-peak plan has been steadily climbing over the last few years as solar proliferates. Off-peak EV-A used to be 9.7 cents back in 2013, but its climbed a full 50% in 6 years. Maybe PG&E is deciding that it needs to make its margin off its richer customers that can afford EV’s.
If you want to get nostalgic, this is what I was paying when I got my RAV4 EV in April 2013. Yes, that is below 4 CENTS per kWh Summer Baseline Off-Peak. Summer was awesome with solar on E-9A. 8:1 Peak/Off-Peak differential and super cheap EV charging. Winter really got up into Tier 3 through...
mpmeyer
Member
zanary
Active Member
Does it say why they are moving you? I had thought EVA rate plan households were grandfathered for 2 or 4 years unless you consumed 800% more this month than the last year then they kick you out to another ToU for a year and then they move you back to EV2A.
zanary
Active Member
Hmm. I missed this in the new EV-A Rate Plan Tariff Schedule. I've attached the latest PDF here
Basically many of us are screwed... ;(
"...
Pursuant to D.17-01-006, as revised by D. 17-02-017 and D. 17-10-018, for grandfathered service, certain solar customers will be allowed to continue service on Rate A of this schedule. Specifically, solar customers that interconnected by December 16, 2016, and elected service under Schedule EV prior to July 31, 2017, are allowed to retain service under this schedule for five years after issuance of the permission to operate, but no later than July 31, 2022. In addition, pursuant to D. 16-01-044, net energy metering customers that interconnected after December 15, 2016 and elected service on Rate Option A of this rate schedule may also continue service on this rate schedule for a period of 5 years from the date the customer commenced service on the NEM 2.0 rate, but no later than November 30, 2025. Existing EV-A customers seeking to commence service on NEM2.0 rate and continue service on EV-A for up to 5 years must submit an interconnection application by November 30, 2019
..."
Pursuant to D.17-01-006, as revised by D. 17-02-017 and D. 17-10-018, for grandfathered service, certain solar customers will be allowed to continue service on Rate A of this schedule. Specifically, solar customers that interconnected by December 16, 2016, and elected service under Schedule EV prior to July 31, 2017, are allowed to retain service under this schedule for five years after issuance of the permission to operate, but no later than July 31, 2022. In addition, pursuant to D. 16-01-044, net energy metering customers that interconnected after December 15, 2016 and elected service on Rate Option A of this rate schedule may also continue service on this rate schedule for a period of 5 years from the date the customer commenced service on the NEM 2.0 rate, but no later than November 30, 2025. Existing EV-A customers seeking to commence service on NEM2.0 rate and continue service on EV-A for up to 5 years must submit an interconnection application by November 30, 2019
..."
Basically many of us are screwed... ;(
