Philosophical questions that highlight how absurd a fee on self-generation is.

[green1]

Lol. Do the time series simulation to see how big your system will have to be in order to completely go off the grid. Do an entire year. Imagine one overcast week. If you only produce 20% of rated during that whole week, how big does your system need to be. Assuming 12 kW max power and 30 kWh/day and 10 hours of sunlight, you'll need 15 kW solar with 12 kW/15 kWh battery. But you're in Alberta, so in the winter say you only get 6 full hours of sunlight. Then you'll need a 30 kW PV system. Go price that. I'd say $30 k for the PV another $10-15k for the battery. So how many years to break even. What if you have a week where it's snowing and you only get 10% production. Then you need a 60 kW system, now you're around $70 k for your power needs. Do you even have that much space? I didn't even do round trip efficiency losses in this calculation.

You do realize that there are many people ALREADY living off grid right? somehow a lot of people are managing to do what you don't think is possible...

But I'm not surprised. It's exactly this attitude that is forcing people to move off-grid instead of doing what's better for society as a whole and using the grid to shift power to where it needs to be. Utility company employees are the worst enemies of a useful and efficient grid.

And yes, I've done the math, I have plenty of roof space to generate all the power I need, assuming I have enough batteries. I'd rather use the grid, but if the utilities get too greedy, and battery prices continue to fall, well we all know where that will lead. Panel prices are already cheap enough, and in the next couple years the batteries will be cheaper than the grid. You'll have priced yourself out of the market.

 

[rolosrevenge]

You do realize that there are many people ALREADY living off grid right? somehow a lot of people are managing to do what you don't think is possible...

But I'm not surprised. It's exactly this attitude that is forcing people to move off-grid instead of doing what's better for society as a whole and using the grid to shift power to where it needs to be. Utility company employees are the worst enemies of a useful and efficient grid.

And yes, I've done the math, I have plenty of roof space to generate all the power I need, assuming I have enough batteries. I'd rather use the grid, but if the utilities get too greedy, and battery prices continue to fall, well we all know where that will lead. Panel prices are already cheap enough, and in the next couple years the batteries will be cheaper than the grid. You'll have priced yourself out of the market.

I know that plenty of people live off the grid, and they use less power and it costs them more to do so. You've got enough roof space for 60 kW? That's a huge roof. I only have enough roof space for about 6 kW. I could never go off grid.

Utilities being greedy? At best they only get a 10% return on their investments. They're not greedy, they're covering the costs. What are apartment dwellers to do? What about everyone that lives in the Northwest where it's super rainy? What if you buy another electric car and your consumption increases? What if you've got neighbors with tall trees that permanently shade your property? People that can produce sufficient power and energy on site are the fringe cases.

 

[green1]

I know that plenty of people live off the grid, and they use less power and it costs them more to do so. You've got enough roof space for 60 kW? That's a huge roof. I only have enough roof space for about 6 kW. I could never go off grid.

I never said I had enough for 60kW, I also never said I needed 60kW, that was your assumption.

Utilities being greedy? At best they only get a 10% return on their investments. They're not greedy, they're covering the costs. What are apartment dwellers to do? What about everyone that lives in the Northwest where it's super rainy? What if you buy another electric car and your consumption increases? What if you've got neighbors with tall trees that permanently shade your property? People that can produce sufficient power and energy on site are the fringe cases.

I'm sorry, I don't have a better word than "greedy" to describe a practice of charging end users more money to provide them less power, or to describe paying solar generators less than coal generators, not because their electricity is worth any less (it's actually worth more) but because they're small players and can't fight back. "Greedy" seems like the best description.
As for the rare exceptions, the people who won't be able to go off grid, well, their prices will skyrocket. It's sad, because it will mostly be those who can least afford it who will end up paying much more for power once those who can afford it ditch the grid, There's no good reason for it either, the grid should be cheaper than batteries, but the greed of the power companies will force this situation. Eventually the outcry will be too much and governments will be forced to act, but by then it will be a major mess to sort out.

Anyway, it's quite obvious that I can't make you understand any of this, so I'm going to stop here. Good luck in your future endeavours in an industry that doesn't yet know what's about to hit them.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” -- Upton Sinclair

 

[nwdiver]

Except not, because your solar panels also impact the system voltage and if there's a fault on the grid, you'll supply fault current, which requires a change in the protection coordination. But nice try.

Hmmm.... weird... I've never had any problems and neither has wk057... I believe there's a rather extensive thread on this topic...

You don't have to be 'off-grid'. People will just start using solar with a 'hybrid' inverter and connects to the grid when batteries run low. You don't need a huge system... you still have the grid if you need it. You just don't have an interconnect... just as wk057 has done. More expensive and more clean energy curtailment, everyone loses (yay) let's try to avoid this future by finding a fair rate structure that rewards production, demand response and storage. Can we at least agree on that?

I hope you can understand that there's a world of difference between recouping enough revenue to maintain infrastructure and buying the utility commission to protect your monopoly...

Where do you think this falls? Note: RECs are now gone and solar penetration is still so low it does't even register (this isn't Ca)....

This is blatant 'KILL SOLAR!' Kinda 'funny' to think that I would actually save money by turning the array off if I went on vacation (Without the RECs... which as I mentioned are now gone)

 

[Skotty]

They need to separate grid upkeep costs from generation costs. They could do that with everyone. Or just with self producers. But when done, there shouldn't just be a new fee for grid connection; there should be a corresponding decrease in what they pay for energy from the grid.

 

[rolosrevenge]

I never said I had enough for 60kW, I also never said I needed 60kW, that was your assumption.

Great, I would love to see your assumptions. What's your min, max, avg daily energy use in each season? What's your min, max, avg daily power curve in each season? Approximate latitude and longitude? What's the minimum winter solar irradiance on a snowy day in W/m^2, angle of incidence of your solar panels? Min, max, avg temperature during each season? Area of roof? Assumed cost of solar PV and battery storage? I can run proper simulation with those numbers. I'd also love to review your analysis, though I'll hold you to the same standards I hold all authors to when I review and IEEE Transactions paper. It will be fun.

Anyway, it's quite obvious that I can't make you understand any of this, so I'm going to stop here. Good luck in your future endeavours in an industry that doesn't yet know what's about to hit them.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” -- Upton Sinclair

Your problem is that I understand far more about the problem than you even know exists. The utilities are well aware of what's coming, and they pay me and those like me to come up with innovative solutions. Here's one such project http://www.energy.gov/eere/sunshot/project-profile-austin-energy-shines

 

[nwdiver]

I just noticed that the web site Wholesale Solar has a relatively new page called Grid Assisted Solar Power Systems. This is really what you need in this situation, and what I've been saying is needed in areas that are not friendly to solar. The basic premise is that you need just enough battery to capture your mean daytime surplus so that you time-shift your own generation. You may have to let some solar go unused or minimally reimbursed from the utility in the summer, but you don't have to go crazy over-sized like you would to go completely off-grid. When the batteries get low in the evening or you solar generates very little due to weather, you just pull from the grid as needed. However, I think it would take some pretty advanced modeling to get an accurate idea of what the real return would be in this scenario. I like it just to counteract the utilities sticking it to solar customers. BTW, I don't care much for the lead acid batteries that Wholesale Solar bundles in their systems. Just the fact that they were addressing this use case was interesting to me.

I really hope it doesn't come to this; Grid-Assisted Systems... for when you're tired of getting jerked around by crooks protecting their monopoly.

- No interconnect required
- No 'Huge' system needed (you still use the grid as a backup)
- No Exports (hooray for curtailed 'wasted' energy!)

 

[rolosrevenge]

Hmmm.... weird... I've never had any problems and neither has wk057... I believe there's a rather extensive thread on this topic...

You don't have to be 'off-grid'. People will just start using solar with a 'hybrid' inverter and connects to the grid when batteries run low. You don't need a huge system... you still have the grid if you need it. You just don't have an interconnect... just as wk057 has done. More expensive and more clean energy curtailment, everyone loses (yay) let's try to avoid this future by finding a fair rate structure that rewards production, demand response and storage. Can we at least agree on that?

I hope you can understand that there's a world of difference between recouping enough revenue to maintain infrastructure and buying the utility commission to protect your monopoly...

Where do you think this falls? Note: RECs are now gone and solar penetration is still so low it does't even register (this isn't Ca)....

This is blatant 'KILL SOLAR!' Kinda 'funny' to think that I would actually save money by turning the array off if I went on vacation (Without the RECs... which as I mentioned are now gone)

Never had any problems with what? Voltage or fault current?

 

[nwdiver]

Never had any problems with what? Voltage or fault current?

Never had anything I would describe as a problem.... Why would there be a problem? WK057 hasn't described any problems either....

 

[rolosrevenge]

Never had anything I would describe as a problem.... Why would there be a problem? WK057 hasn't described any problems either....

So fault current wouldn't be a problem for you, but the grid. The high voltage problem as well. Remember my three hypotheticals? Those are real issues that crop up. Just because you aren't clustered doesn't mean that other areas of the network aren't and who pays for the big expensive upgrades, the person who installed the last PV, or all of the PV owners?

 

[nwdiver]

So fault current wouldn't be a problem for you, but the grid. The high voltage problem as well. Remember my three hypotheticals? Those are real issues that crop up. Just because you aren't clustered doesn't mean that other areas of the network aren't and who pays for the big expensive upgrades, the person who installed the last PV, or all of the PV owners?

????? I think you're confusing systems.... a Radian Outback or Magnum Energy inverter cause grid problems but charging an EV doesn't? How would these inverters cause a fault current? What high voltage? It's an inverter/charger.... the Magnum can't even export....

Regardless these are UL listed appliances... it's not like the utility can stop you from using them on your side of the meter.

But yeah.... if everyone did this that would probably cause BIG problems, and there would be nothing the utility could do... another reason I would rather get a fair and equitable deal for DERs that encourages production, demand response and storage.

 

[rolosrevenge]

If it can't export anything to the grid, than it wouldn't contribute to fault current, but any grid connected inverter will contribute some fault current. You do know how protection coordination, fusing and relaying, works on distribution networks right? High voltage problems are also caused by injecting power at the ends of networks, because it raises the lowest voltage which ripples up the system. A charging EV is passive, meaning it doesn't inject power into the system, so it won't cause any voltage or fault current problems. A solar panel using the same type of inverter would cause problems, because it is a source, not a load.

 

[nwdiver]

If it can't export anything to the grid.

Yes..... that's the whole point... it NEVER exports => No Interconnect => No production fees => curtailment => cutting your nose to spite your face stupidity....

BUT... you still have the grid => no oversized system => it actually is cost effective

Nothing the utility can do => even worse death spiral => hows about we avoid this by not making it cheaper than a grid-tied system.... which is now the case in NM.

Utilities are attempting to make solar cost prohibitive... they're just going to make the situation worse by encouraging 'grid-assisted' systems over 'grid-tied' systems.

 

[rolosrevenge]

Not a death spiral at all. They'll just decouple the cost of a grid connection from the cost of energy used and everyone will pay the same fee for the same connection size. Once you pay the real cost, you'll find that the hybrid system will cost about the same. It isn't necessarily cutting your nose to spite your face, since if you are interconnected then solar will cause all of the problems that I mentioned that you don't seem to think you need to pay for. Plus for small amounts of solar, those problems don't crop up, so they really don't need to raise any rates unless lots of people put in solar.

I honestly think the utilities will prefer the grid assisted systems, because they just need to change the cost structure to make the grid connect fair for all and then they don't have to worry about the solar problems.

 

[nwdiver]

solar will cause all of the problems that I mentioned that you don't seem to think you need to pay for.

Is that why utilities love solar farms so much? All the 'problems' they cause? Funny how if it represents a profit for them they're all for it...

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Not a death spiral at all. They'll just decouple the cost of a grid connection from the cost of energy used and everyone will pay the same fee for the same connection size. Once you pay the real cost, you'll find that the hybrid system will cost about the same. It isn't necessarily cutting your nose to spite your face, since if you are interconnected then solar will cause all of the problems that I mentioned that you don't seem to think you need to pay for. Plus for small amounts of solar, those problems don't crop up, so they really don't need to raise any rates unless lots of people put in solar.

I honestly think the utilities will prefer the grid assisted systems, because they just need to change the cost structure to make the grid connect fair for all and then they don't have to worry about the solar problems.

I think you're underestimating the percentage of profits made on inefficient generation.

Clearly if solar is allowed to compete in NM or NV, the utilities there are done. Don't you think they would go to a revised fee like what you describe above long before they would shoot themselves in the foot with these corrupt PUC practices? They know they're falling on the grenade, these new rules will be struck down by courts or riots within the year and everyone will be out on their ass. What we're seeing here is the nuclear option, there is nothing less aggressive beyond this that will somehow make a difference.

Solar is cheap, they operate in the dessert. The only next step is to somehow force the entire state onto utility scale solar and that's a tougher sell than this.

 

[rolosrevenge]

Is that why utilities love solar farms so much? All the 'problems' they cause? Funny how if it represents a profit for them they're all for it...

Utilities often have to buy battery energy storage systems to mitigate the solar integration, and it still ends up being more expensive than traditional generators. They do it because they are often mandated to. The problems caused by solar don't increase linearly, they are largely non-existent for small penetration levels but after it gets around 20% of a feeder load, the costs of integration sky rocket.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you're underestimating the percentage of profits made on inefficient generation.

Clearly if solar is allowed to compete in NM or NV, the utilities there are done. Don't you think they would go to a revised fee like what you describe above long before they would shoot themselves in the foot with these corrupt PUC practices? They know they're falling on the grenade, these new rules will be struck down by courts or riots within the year and everyone will be out on their ass. What we're seeing here is the nuclear option, there is nothing less aggressive beyond this that will somehow make a difference.

Solar is cheap, they operate in the dessert. The only next step is to somehow force the entire state onto utility scale solar and that's a tougher sell than this.

If this were true, than the utility, who wants only to make money as you say, would have all of its future resource growth as solar plants since they're so much cheaper and economies of scale will win out. If they don't plan on making all new plants solar, than the economics probably isn't as good as you think it is.

But I will pose a question back to you. Imagine a scenario where 30% of the houses are grid assisted systems. On partly cloudy days with puffy cumulus clouds, the feeder power swings from all of the solar systems cause voltage flicker problems, requiring a 2 MW 0.5 MWh battery to be installed at $500k. Who should pay for it?

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Utilities often have to buy battery energy storage systems to mitigate the solar integration, and it still ends up being more expensive than traditional generators. They do it because they are often mandated to. The problems caused by solar don't increase linearly, they are largely non-existent for small penetration levels but after it gets around 20% of a feeder load, the costs of integration sky rocket.

You can't be charging people a usage rate based on energy that flows from their roof directly to their refrigerator as if the utility had something to do with the transaction. That's absurd. You might as well give them the option to walk down the street and demand money from total strangers.

It's arbitrary revenue protection in the form of a pseudo-tax. Period. End of thread.

 

[rolosrevenge]

You can't be charging people a usage rate based on energy that flows from their roof directly to their refrigerator as if the utility had something to do with the transaction. That's absurd. You might as well give them the option to walk down the street and demand money from total strangers.

It's arbitrary revenue protection in the form of a pseudo-tax. Period. End of thread.

It's obvious that you've never modeled a distribution feeder and run time series power flow studies. The additional load variations from solar can cause problems on the feeder even if no power goes back to the grid.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

It's obvious that you've never modeled a distribution feeder and run time series power flow studies. The additional load variations from solar can cause problems on the feeder even if no power goes back to the grid.

That is absurd logic. Shall I call my utility before I turn on my dishwasher? What if my neighbor and I turn on our Christmas lights at exactly the same moment?

The grid isn't a delicate flower, it is a utility designed and intended to serve the needs of the public.