Pictures of Model 3... probably not but nice concept anyway

[tga]

A Tesla model 3 replacement for my wife's Subaru Outback would be just fine, thank you very much. I need a big enough rear hatch to hold two big dogs.

Call it a shooting break, station wagon, estate wagon, CUV, whatever. Just make it 5 doors. Sacrificing the utility of rear doors in the name of styling is kind of silly...

 

[1208]

You'll notice on the alfa previous page that it is styled like a 3 door but has 5, with the back door handle hidden within the black window frame. They have done this design style on other cars including Renaults electric car, the Zoe. I was wondering peoples views on it, as it gives clean design and reduces air friction.

 

[mwulff]

And is incredibly dull and boring. No thanks. And no FWD please. I do expect the 3 to have a hatch similar to the Model S, so the Skoda offers nothing new there.

Hence why I noted that it would require a much more sporty look. But the skoda packaging is very good.

And why not make it fwd? With optional AWD.? Customers are more uncomfortable with RWD than FWD for some reason so go where the most customers are.

 

[Red Sage]

Tesla Motors and Elon Musk have said the Model ≡ will be designed to compete against the BMW 3-Series, a world renowned benchmark for performance in automotive engineering. There is no such thing as a front wheel drive BMW 3-Series. The 3-Series has consistently outsold 100% of its FWD competition for 25+ years and counting. The advantages of FWD are mainly that it allows for a more roomy interior within a smaller cabin space, while mitigating the effect of ICE components that impose upon cargo area. Each of those advantages is made moot by the skateboard layout of an electric vehicle.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Tesla Motors and Elon Musk have said the Model ≡ will be designed to compete against the BMW 3-Series, a world renowned benchmark for performance in automotive engineering. There is no such thing as a front wheel drive BMW 3-Series. The 3-Series has consistently outsold 100% of its FWD competition for 25+ years and counting. The advantages of FWD are mainly that it allows for a more roomy interior within a smaller cabin space, while mitigating the effect of ICE components that impose upon cargo area. Each of those advantages is made moot by the skateboard layout of an electric vehicle.

Red Sage: I'm not sure all that's necessarily true globally and Tesla is surely aiming at the global market with Model 3. I think Audi A4 FWD has sold, in many markets, quite consistently and probably exceeded 3 Series sales in many places. Perhaps you are talking of the U.S. sales only? Even BMW has recently introduced their first FWD model and Mercedes-Benz got there already some years ago - both are also increasingly embracing AWD.

Surely lack of ICE components removes some of those relative FWD benefits, agreed, but let's not forget RWD oversteer scares a lot of people in lower segments and some find FWD understeer more pleasant (I know, I know, this isn't the performance view at all). FWD also has some benefits in snow, compared to RWD, as you can wiggle the pulling wheels. There is a reason why Saab's FWD models used to be very popular in Europe at one time.

But most importantly there is a large market that is simply used to FWD. Those might be put off by RWD. I know there are days when my P85 scares me, because I'm used to driving mostly AWD. I would even argue - as far as trends go - FWD and AWD won and RWD lost already in the grand scheme of things. As the EVfication progresses (motors in each wheel, ultimate torque vectoring), I'd expect this just to increase as AWD takes over performance and FWD is for the frugal golf carts.

Tesla seems to be aiming at AWD for their performance future. I'm not sure they couldn't do this through the Audi approach on Model 3: AWD for performance, FWD for the masses. Heck, given the versatility, Tesla could do all three: FWD, RWD and AWD, since they could just install one or both motors as applicable for a model. Small-motored FWD low-end version, RWD track-racer and AWD insaner.

All this said, I have no information or insight to believe what, if anything, Tesla might do. Just speculating.

p.s. Nobody put too much value on automotive magazine pre-release Photoshops, especially this early. They are just wishful thinking based on some brand cues/existing models...

 

[JRP3]

Along with all the other arguments for RWD in an EV, I'd also suggest the constant comparison of the Model 3 to the BMW 3 series is a strong suggestion that it will be RWD. Unless they pull a Subaru and make them all AWD. If the added possible range from AWD allows them to use a smaller pack to hit the desired range numbers that may negate the extra cost of the extra motor/inverter/gearbox, but I'd think with the cost savings in cell and pack production from the GF that would not be the case. Plus I want RWD for the occasional burnout and drifting :biggrin:

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Along with all the other arguments for RWD in an EV, I'd also suggest the constant comparison of the Model 3 to the BMW 3 series is a strong suggestion that it will be RWD. Unless they pull a Subaru and make them all AWD. If the added possible range from AWD allows them to use a smaller pack to hit the desired range numbers that may negate the extra cost of the extra motor/inverter/gearbox, but I'd think with the cost savings in cell and pack production from the GF that would not be the case. Plus I want RWD for the occasional burnout and drifting :biggrin:

The comparison point is fair. Model X is compared to Audi Q7 by Tesla and clearly that has a message in it.

I guess it really depends on who Tesla is going to target. Globally speaking, an FWD/AWD combo would seem to me less offensive, if they want to attract masses too. By this I mean if they are targeting the Model 3 to attract also EV converts from smaller premium and family vehicles that are often FWD.

But sure if the BMW 3 Series performance market is a primary motivator, then RWD it could be.

 

[GregHudson]

When did anyone from Tesla say the initial Model 3 was going to be a crossover?

Yes, that has been said, and a supporting power point presentation slide shown to confirm this. JB was the speaker if I remember correctly.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Yes, that has been said, and a supporting power point presentation slide shown to confirm this. JB was the speaker if I remember correctly.

Wasn't there also some comment - and subsequent thread on TMC - suggesting Model 3 might be a bit of a weirdmobile?

Of course, Elon saying no to weirdmobiles, but by this I mean its size, shape etc. might be unconventional - and there was some Tesla/Musk comment to suggest this?

 

[GregHudson]

For people (like me) that might not know what a "shooting brake" car style is and why it's called that, take a look at these two links:

Wikipedia: Shooting-brake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Google Images: shooting brake - Google Search

I think this would be a very cool Gen III look for Tesla.

I've always been a fan of the BMW M Coupe style:

View attachment 80667

Isn't that one of the worst selling BMW's of all time ?

GH

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Alfa Giulietta :smile:
View attachment 81167

Now there's a car that's been beaten to death with the ugly stick !

 

[physicsfita]

Tesla Motors and Elon Musk have said the Model ≡ will be designed to compete against the BMW 3-Series, a world renowned benchmark for performance in automotive engineering. There is no such thing as a front wheel drive BMW 3-Series. The 3-Series has consistently outsold 100% of its FWD competition for 25+ years and counting. The advantages of FWD are mainly that it allows for a more roomy interior within a smaller cabin space, while mitigating the effect of ICE components that impose upon cargo area. Each of those advantages is made moot by the skateboard layout of an electric vehicle.

If the Model 3 came out as RWD-only, I would get something else. Having driven RWD cars on icy roads when I was young, I have no desire to go back to putting on snow tires and putting concrete blocks in the the trunk to get traction and then having to drive super-carefully to keep from getting in to a spin. I shudder just thinking about it. All of the FWD cars I've driven handled so much better, it isn't even funny. I would never go back to an RWD death trap.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Isn't that one of the worst selling BMW's of all time ?

Geeze!!! All I said was that 'I liked it'!! Nothing more, nothing less!

 

[gregincal]

Yes, that has been said, and a supporting power point presentation slide shown to confirm this. JB was the speaker if I remember correctly.

The slide from JB's presentation shows that the Model 3 Platform will have a sedan and crossover, just like it shows that the second generation platform has a sedan and crossover (Model S and Model X). That's what they've always said, that they would have a crossover version on the Model 3 platform at some stage. It definitely does not say the initial Model 3 will include a crossover.

- - - Updated - - -

If the Model 3 came out as RWD-only, I would get something else. Having driven RWD cars on icy roads when I was young, I have no desire to go back to putting on snow tires and putting concrete blocks in the the trunk to get traction and then having to drive super-carefully to keep from getting in to a spin. I shudder just thinking about it. All of the FWD cars I've driven handled so much better, it isn't even funny. I would never go back to an RWD death trap

You are thinking about old crappy ICE cars. You had to put concrete blocks in the back because they have a stupid ICE engine in the front. You had to drive carefully because there was no such thing as traction control. That experience has no bearing on driving a Model 3. Many people feel the Model S drives just fine in the snow. However, nobody is saying it will be only RWD. There will almost definitely be an AWD version. The question is just FWD/AWD or RWD/AWD (or AWD only).

 

[marcon]

Model 3 will be a performance car

Elon Musk is a performance car guy. He cancelled the Model S40, not only because it had few takers, but apparently it also "sucked" in his words, with low available peak power from fewer batteries. (source purely from memory)

If at all possible at the proposed price point, the Model 3 is going to be performance oriented. It is supposed to be aimed at the BMW 3-series, with a probable performance dual motor version aimed at BMW M3, Audi S4 quattro and Mercedes AMG C63.

Many of the renders in this thread are at minimum a class below, what the model 3 will have to be, to sell at a minimum $35 000 price point (minus tax credits, etc.). Tesla might develop such a car in the future, when battery prices have further decreased, on a Gerneration IV platform, but probably only after a pickup truck, a new roadster and possible other not-ultra-low margin vehicles.

Tesla Model S is very well balanced, with a very low center of gravity, both due its skateboard platform. Electric motors have very fast reaction times. Many people on this forum have remarked on the great, even exceptional handling of the rear wheel Tesla Roadster and Model S on winter roads and in snow. There is a guy in Norway, who approved of the Roadster handling in snow enough, he bought 14 (!) [Edit: (only) 6] Roadsters for his village.

Considering that a dual motor version is probable, both a rear and front wheel drive model would be possible. However, considering the story so far and a possible California wheather bias, I expect Model 3 to be rear and all wheel drive only.

I am a great fan of shooting brake cars, but the sloping aerodynamically optimised hatch of the Model S does create a pretty big trunk, too. I expect the Model 3 hatch to be similar in form and aerodynamic function, if a little steeper to give enough headroom for the back seats in the 20% smaller, i.e. shorter Model 3.

Edit: Whoops, Sorry! No Idea, where I had the number of 14 Teslas from. Well, posting long ago memorised numbers without researching sources, is a little on the risky side.

Regarding the Tesla enthusiast in Norway who owns multiple Roadsters, he does not own 14 as you stated, but 6, and one Model S. See A Tesla Superowner in the Arctic Circle | Tesla Motors

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Elon Musk is a performance car guy. He cancelled the Model S40, not only because it had few takers, but apparently it also "sucked" in his words, with low available peak power from fewer batteries. (source purely from memory)

If at all possible at the proposed price point, the Model 3 is going to be performance oriented. It is supposed to be aimed at the BMW 3-series, with a probable performance dual motor version aimed at BMW M3, Audi S4 quattro and Mercedes AMG C63.

Many of the renders in this thread are at minimum a class below, what the model 3 will have to be, to sell at a minimum $35 000 price point (minus tax credits, etc.). Tesla might develop such a car in the future, when battery prices have further decreased, on a Gerneration IV platform, but probably only after a pickup truck, a new roadster and possible other not-ultra-low margin vehicles.

Tesla Model S is very well balanced, with a very low center of gravity, both due its skateboard platform. Electric motors have very fast reaction times. Many people on this forum have remarked on the great, even exceptional handling of the rear wheel Tesla Roadster and Model S on winter roads and in snow. There is a guy in Norway, who approved of the Roadster handling in snow enough, he bought 14 (!) Roadsters for his village.

The RWD Model S is indeed nice for an RWD car, in snow too, because of the uniquely great weight distribution and the smooth torque delivery.

That said, it is still an RWD - as in dangeours to "punch" (even if the traction control will probably save your butt) and without the ability to maneuver the spinning wheels in snow/ice, something that FWD and AWD drivers can do. This is an area where it still significantly differes from the FWD/AWD experience, and I do speak from experience.

The advantages of RWD on track (or in a spirited bend of a B road) still remain the disadvantages of RWD in everyday convenience and safety.

It is fun, no questions, though.

Anyway, where is this notion of performance being a driving factor for Model 3 coming from anyway? I always thought Model 3 was about delivering EV to the masses and making our car world electric and sustainable. Since when did the masses care about performance, let alone the likes of BMW M3. Being a fun car is a bonus, not the goal here, as I understand it.

Elon Musk wants to transform society as we know it. Not win the Nordschleife.

p.s. I don't mean to say this to discredit the possibility of a high-performance Model 3. It is quite possible, of course. I just don't think the main Model 3 will be about performance, but about delivering a great EV to the masses, hence its drivetrain could be dictated by a wide range of concerns/reasons. Some, which, of course, quite potentially lead to RWD.

 

[ecarfan]

Regarding the Tesla enthusiast in Norway who owns multiple Roadsters, he does not own 14 as you stated, but 6, and one Model S. See A Tesla Superowner in the Arctic Circle | Tesla Motors

Regardless, your point is valid that RWD Teslas handle well in snow.

The Model 3 will surely not be FWD. No reason to do so, only negatives to that approach. I doubt it will be AWD only, as the added range over RWD is modest, and the added cost and loss of frunk space is significant.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Anyway, where is this notion of performance being a driving factor for Model 3 coming from anyway? I always thought Model 3 was about delivering EV to the masses and making our car world electric and sustainable. Since when did the masses care about performance, let alone the likes of BMW M3. Being a fun car is a bonus, not the goal here, as I understand it.

Elon Musk wants to transform society as we know it. Not win the Nordschleife.

p.s. I don't mean to say this to discredit the possibility of a high-performance Model 3. It is quite possible, of course. I just don't think the main Model 3 will be about performance, but about delivering a great EV to the masses, hence its drivetrain could be dictated by a wide range of concerns/reasons. Some, which, of course, quite potentially lead to RWD.

I agree with this 100% but I gave up trying to support this line of reasoning because of the cacophony of Tesla fanbois that only believe that the Model 3 is going to be a mini Model S and *has* to beat the pants off of the BMW 3 series and/or the BMW M3. I just don't see it, but it's not worth trying to explain why. Maybe you'll have better luck.

 

[JRP3]

I think "mass market" may have different meaning for some. With the base 3 starting around $35K and going up from there it's really not going to be a Toyota Corolla or equivalent "mass market" vehicle. I'm quite sure Elon and Tesla intend it to have some performance characteristics and not be a boring family transporter.

Regarding traction, having grown up mostly with RWD vehicles I find them much more predictable than FWD vehicles, though certainly most ICE's have better traction with FWD. However I almost always run snow tires on my winter vehicles and used added weight to add traction to the RWD vehicles, so traction differences were minor. Weight distribution should not be an issue for an EV, so again traction differences between FWD and RWD should be minor.

 

[Twiglett]

for sure "mass market" is a relative term.
a car that costs 35K is definitely not the same kind of mass market as a corolla or civic

 

[gregincal]

I agree with this 100% but I gave up trying to support this line of reasoning because of the cacophony of Tesla fanbois that only believe that the Model 3 is going to be a mini Model S and *has* to beat the pants off of the BMW 3 series and/or the BMW M3. I just don't see it, but it's not worth trying to explain why. Maybe you'll have better luck.

It doesn't have to beat the pants of them, but it has to compete with them. Elon and Tesla have never said the Model 3 was about delivering a car to the masses. Instead they have compared it repeatedly with the BMW 3 series. They have said that eventually they wan't to deliver electric cars to the masses.