Pictures of Model 3... probably not but nice concept anyway

[marcon]

Anyway, where is this notion of performance being a driving factor for Model 3 coming from anyway? I always thought Model 3 was about delivering EV to the masses and making our car world electric and sustainable. Since when did the masses care about performance, let alone the likes of BMW M3. Being a fun car is a bonus, not the goal here, as I understand it.

The main prejudices against and problems with electric vehicles people have, still seem to be (from media and conversations, I have several times a month): golf cart performance, weirdmobile, low range, hight cost and short-life, toxic, unrecyclable batteries from unsufficient lithium resources. Add to that plain ignorance of electric vehicles and the state of renewable energies.

To truly create a (more) mass market vehicle with a (still relatively) new technology, Tesla probably needs to hit all the selling points: better performance, more interior volume, above 200 miles real world range, cheaper economics compared to equivalent ICE cars, low enough initial price, advanced tech and human-machine interface, environmental advantages, public recycling of batteries.

To say it in a few words. New technology needs to be all around better to get a majority to change quickly. And due to its high torque from 0, great city and country road driving performance is one of the easier targets to hit for an electric vehicle.

With 200 miles worth of batteries, only the power electronics and motor will hold the car back from having at least pretty good accelleration. Considering the state of undersaturation of the market with electric vehicles, Tesla is really not in danger of cannibalising its sales over increasing its overall sales from competing successfully with ICE vehicles. So, any edge that is possible without breaking the bank or development timeline will be present.

Real performance will come only with higher end trims of the Model S, i.e. performance suspension, better power electronics, more motor(s).

 

[Red Sage]

AnxietyRanger: I am, among all my car enthusiast pals, the lone proponent of front wheel drive. I compared the difference between FWD and rear wheel drive to riding toys of our youth, now long past... The Big Wheel was FWD. The Green Machine was RWD. I was able to do all the same slides, spins, and drifts in one that I could do in the other. That is, for me -- there is no difference. -- beyond adjusting to the capabilities of the vehicle.

The idea that most people are 'used to' FWD, and thereby can't operate RWD cars is to me, a real cop-out. Operated at standard issue street legal speeds, cars behave the same.

I feel much the same about high power vehicles. Every time someone suggests the Model ≡ should be a wimpmobile, slower than a Camry, more docile than an Accord, so that 'the masses won't be overwhelmed', I get hot under the collar. Tesla Motors should not provide the cars that Honda and Toyota should have built twenty years ago. It is better to give them evidence of the goal they should strive for in the future.

Either you know how to drive, or you don't. You can drift anything, even a tank, if you know what you're doing. When people proclaim they can 'feel the difference' between a luxoboat with RWD and another with FWD when driving on city streets posted at 35 MPH I call [BOLSHEVIK]. Unless you are taking them to the track, one overweight, three ton, couch transporter is the same as any other in daily use -- not for me.

The very term 'sports sedan' makes me cringe. I practically cried when I learned the Tesla Roadster was to be followed up by a 'luxury sports sedan'. I didn't look at anything else regarding Tesla Motors for three years after that. My bad. I could have, would have, purchased stock in early 2012 had I known what the Model S really was... But I digress...

I have posted in another thread why I think Model ≡ is likely to be AWD.
• I understand that many still hold out hope for RWD, but they can't beat the physics with pure emotion.
• The handling benefits of FWD during bad weather is because of the weight of the engine, directly over the axle, improving traction for the front wheels -- no such observable benefit with an electric motor, unless you want to install something the size of a wine barrel that outputs 5,000 HP.
• The best way to beat all comers is with dual motor AWD. Period.

 

[mwulff]

Much is being said here about RWD in winter conditions. I live close to the arctic circle here and we have some pretty bad winters. For the last 6 years I have driven BMW's and had zero problems in winter conditions.

Modern RWD cars with traction control and modern winter tires really are just as safe as a FWD/AWD car. BMW actually did a poll of their customers and most of them actually didn't knew they were driving a RWD car. This is how good tires and computers have become.

AWD works even better in winter but it can also instill a false sense of security since it can get you going, but AWD can't help you stop. So every winter I see someone in an AWD car take off like a rocket and wind up upside down in a ditch 10 km's later. This is a driver error for sure, but it really happens.

But Tesla really has all the options available: FWD, RWD and AWD. I hope they pick RWD with optional AWD.

With the HP output of electric motors they may have to since torque steer could become an issue with FWD. Does anybody know if electric motors torque steer?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thank you JRP3, Twiglett, HankLloydRight, gregincal, marcon and Reg Sage for nice and thoughful replies to the thread in the past six or so messages. This is in response to all of them.

First of all, I think we have to concede there is a certain amount of regional difference that is surely to cloud our thinking - and it is hard to say how U.S. or global perspective Tesla has in mind for the Model 3. BMW 3 Series is, at base, quite a different beast in the U.S. than what they start at in Europe for a similar amount of money. Let me tell you, the base 3 Series is far from a "sporty sedan" in Europe... That said, I understand Audi A4 has an FWD $35,000 model in the U.S. as well, which sounds comparable. Volvo too seems to sell FWDs around this price-point in the U.S.

In Germany the 3 Series performance starts at 114 (one hundred fourteen) horse-power (116 PS) for around $34,000 dollars.

I acknowledge Tesla is a U.S. manufacturer, but they've shown an international-enough mindset for me to not be quite sure where their thinking on this is.

Second, I do acknowledge Tesla has to beat expectations based on existing cars to sell the EV story (the new guy has to be better than the old guy) and to kind of hide the shortcomings current EVs have due to less infrastructure than the ICE establishment. I surely expect Model 3 to have performance above their immediate competition. And likely there will be an "M3" option too. However, another aspect Tesla has advocated and taken is making sure their cars are familiar to the target market - the "no weirdmobiles" story. That is why Model S still looks like an ICE car, even though inside it has some really unique benefits. So in that sense, market expectations for a car like Model 3 probably play some role.

Model 3 has to be familiar enough. Do the customers they have in mind expect FWD, AWD or RWD? I'm not sure whom exactly Tesla is targeting, but whomever it is, I am sure they will calculate those expectations into their planning. If the target market expects FWD, it might be useful to offer FWD. While I agree on EV FWD has less benefits than on ICE because weight can be distributed equally and motors can be placed wherever without longitudal axles, the feel of the RWD, especially if there is that above-average power in that motor, is still unfamiliar to many especially in bad conditions. And snow/ice drivers know with an RWD there is no way you can wiggle the pulling wheels for traction or to plow snow - and this is sometimes needed even with studded winter wheels. I speak from experience too and I think RWD remains inferior to FWD in bad conditions, especially in snow.

Of course AWD is even better, but there is a reason many like FWD in non-performance driving. In performance driving, on a track, in knowing hands RWD of course is predictable than FWD and for the track day, RWD might be even more fun than AWD.

Thirdly, Model S is already shopped by people underneath the category. People who normally would be in a market for the 3 Series, have upgraded into the 5 Series/7 Series territory to get the EV experience. Some come from the likes of Prius. Equally, or even more so, I expect Model 3 to be shopped by people who upgrade their car standards to get a great EV. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that many an FWD Toyota driver might consider the Model 3. So in that sense I think the car would do well to "speak" to the average family, too.

I guess my thinking goes like this: If your customer is already a little apprehensive about the EV part, why put an RWD obstacle for them to cross as well, if they are apprehensive about that? Now, studies would have to be made and presented to know how this new/old market actually thinks. I don't claim to know.

Finally, as for Tesla's comments on where Model 3 is positioned, my understanding has been that their thinking is the premium mass-market, but I am interested to hear if someone can dig up some quotes etc. The premium mass-market for sure has plenty of FWD cars too, thanks to the likes of Audi and Volvo, and increasingly from other Germans. It could go either way I guess, if there even is a non-AWD option.

 

[marcon]

AnxietyRanger: Thank you, too :biggrin:. I agree absolutely, with what you say.

 

[JRP3]

If your customer is already a little apprehensive about the EV part, why put an RWD obstacle for them to cross as well, if they are apprehensive about that?

I expect no matter how the cars are configured Tesla will sell all that they make. I also don't think the "fear" of RWD is as great as you make it out to be.

 

[MSEV]

Coming from the midwest, I know I shouldn't really fear, but I do fear RWD. I have even seen RWD cars in the last five years struggling in icy conditions. I don't know if younger drivers have been taught what RWD ICE cars/trucks are like, but older drivers remember, IMHO. FWD and/or AWD do not give me pause. So even though the weight issues are different, the imbedded "knowledge" and fears of RWD exist in many areas where there is ice for ICE autos (again, IMHO).
There were many reasons that I pulled my order last fall for a S85 and waited for the S85D, and one was icy conditions (in my mind and memory) and the desire for AWD (better traction in snow).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I expect no matter how the cars are configured Tesla will sell all that they make. I also don't think the "fear" of RWD is as great as you make it out to be.

That is of course possible.

I guess my main point, though, is that it doesn't really matter what individual Tesla fans think on this, but what the relative mass-market - whatever that is - that Tesla targets thinks. In Model S I can see RWD/AWD making sense to its audience. Model 3 will have a somewhat different audience. I expect Tesla to research that audience and spec the car to meet and where possible exceed the expectations of that audience. FWD might make sense there or it might not, but it is not exactly the same way thinking market that the Model S has, that I guess is sure.

 

[roblab]

Coming from the midwest, I know I shouldn't really fear, but I do fear RWD. I have even seen RWD cars in the last five years struggling in icy conditions. I don't know if younger drivers have been taught what RWD ICE cars/trucks are like, but older drivers remember, IMHO. FWD and/or AWD do not give me pause. So even though the weight issues are different, the imbedded "knowledge" and fears of RWD exist in many areas where there is ice for ICE autos (again, IMHO).
There were many reasons that I pulled my order last fall for a S85 and waited for the S85D, and one was icy conditions (in my mind and memory) and the desire for AWD (better traction in snow).

Coming from the midwest, I used to drive right through eight inches of snow in my rear wheeled car. This was before they had figured out how to do front wheel drive on a front engine car. Most of us pretty quickly learned to just slow down and be gentle. Most of us learned that 4 wheel brakes wouldn't stop you if you got going too fast, and two wheel drive sort of held you back to reality.
I remember driving on I70 through Columbia, MO. Snow and ice on the freeway. I was doing about 45. Sure enough, here comes a 4wd Jeep along behind, decides my cheap Toyota must be the reason I'm going slow, and goes around. And around. And around. He skated a complete 360 about 5 feet from the passenger door. He then pulled back in behind me and we did fine.
We're not even going to start talking about all the farm pickups with all their weight in the front and an empty pickup bed, sliding from barn to breakfast and off the road.
My point being that it is often the driver who can't handle the snow, rather than the car, in many cases. Give Alabama two inches of snow, and the roads will be shut down. In Michigan, they will say "Snow? Where?"
With the 50/50 weight distribution of the Tesla design, and the instantaneous traction control, icy roads handle well, as long as you drive at a sane speed.

 

[Twiglett]

I would point out that FWD in an ICE is not due to driving characteristics but manufacturing and componentry issues.
All normal ICE cars have the engine in the front, so in order to drive the rear wheels the have the shaft running down the center of the car to the rear wheels.
That makes manufacturing complex - and more expensive.
A FWD ICE is installed as a single component in the front of the car, making building it dramatically cheaper and easier.
That is why cheaper cars are FWD.
For an EV none of that applies and using RWD is much simpler and easier, no complex steering and universal joints needed.
So RWD is cheaper to build in an EV than FWD.
Unless you are an existing manufacturer with an ICE FWD model that you are converting to EV, like Nissan, GM etc

 

[JRP3]

For an EV none of that applies and using RWD is much simpler and easier, no complex steering and universal joints needed.
So RWD is cheaper to build in an EV than FWD.

Not sure that's true. RWD EV still uses CV joints for the axles, probably the same as the FWD system, and steering components would probably be similar in both cases.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I would point out that FWD in an ICE is not due to driving characteristics but manufacturing and componentry issues.
All normal ICE cars have the engine in the front, so in order to drive the rear wheels the have the shaft running down the center of the car to the rear wheels.
That makes manufacturing complex - and more expensive.
A FWD ICE is installed as a single component in the front of the car, making building it dramatically cheaper and easier.
That is why cheaper cars are FWD.
For an EV none of that applies and using RWD is much simpler and easier, no complex steering and universal joints needed.
So RWD is cheaper to build in an EV than FWD.
Unless you are an existing manufacturer with an ICE FWD model that you are converting to EV, like Nissan, GM etc

True enough. That wasn't my point, though.

Market expectations is my point.

If customers expect the FWD experience and find RWD unpleasant, they might forgo the car.

Just these days it was raining and my P85 definitely felt restless. Ok in this category, go smaller and many people might expect FWD.

Model 3 may well be RWD, just illustrating the thought, not predicting.

 

[EVNow]

Unless you are an existing manufacturer with an ICE FWD model that you are converting to EV, like Nissan, GM etc

Nissan Leaf is not a "converted" ICE. You can't make up facts to support your hypothesis ...

 

[Twiglett]

Nissan Leaf is not a "converted" ICE. You can't make up facts to support your hypothesis ...

Nissan LEAF | Plug In America
Based on the same platform as the Versa.
Obviously not a actual Versa, but most large scale manufacturers have platforms that they base several models on, so they can reduce the overall costs to develop models. Heck, thats what started the crossover market, starting out with a regular platform and making a not quite off-roader. Most successful platforms last for several model years and so called refreshes.
Its not a hypothesis, its the reality of how most entrenched car companies work.

The point of the statement though is being missed.
Tesla have none of that hanging over their heads. They have a designed from scratch EV and aren't constrained by years old "platforms", so the whole reasoning for FWD/RWD doesn't apply to them.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Nissan LEAF | Plug In America
Based on the same platform as the Versa.
Obviously not a actual Versa, but most large scale manufacturers have platforms that they base several models on, so they can reduce the overall costs to develop models. Heck, thats what started the crossover market, starting out with a regular platform and making a not quite off-roader. Most successful platforms last for several model years and so called refreshes.
Its not a hypothesis, its the reality of how most entrenched car companies work.

The point of the statement though is being missed.
Tesla have none of that hanging over their heads. They have a designed from scratch EV and aren't constrained by years old "platforms", so the whole reasoning for FWD/RWD doesn't apply to them.

Twiglett: I agree we have seen FWD on EVs mostly on shared platforms. That said, we have seen very few dedicated EVs so far to determine any trends from. We have limited data on what car companies are going to do in this area, since the only ones with really dedicated current EVs are Tesla, an unknown quantity, and BMW, a long-time RWD fan, and rest pretty much - as you say - use variations of existing platforms (or have only offered fantastical concepts).

I disagree "the whole reasoning for FWD/RWD doesn't apply to" Tesla, though, because no matter how or why things started vis-a-vis FWD/RWD (and you make perfectly fine points there), the FWD/RWD reasoning is partially psychological/market behavioral as well as a driving characteristic fact. Some people prefer FWD, some prefer RWD, some must have AWD, and these have different pros and cons, driving-wise. These are factors still in the age of EV, even if everything else wouldn't be. It is bound to take years, if not decades to see a change in these preferences, let alone the facts relating to the driving characteristics - physics are what they are.

The likes of Audi, Volvo and previous Saab have shipped tons of FWD cars in the "Model 3" segment and those may be more approachable for people looking up from the likes of Toytas and Fords, which are predominantly FWD. Even Mercedes and BMW are toying with FWD cars now and I doubt it is just because it fits better.

Now, it may be that Tesla doesn't feel their Model 3 target market needs FWD, or it isn't a big-enough need, so perhaps they won't go there. Maybe they'll optimize for two motors from the start. Or prefer RWD and target BMW 3 Series. But if they do see a need, offering FWD seems trivial - make a version with just a smaller front-motor and performance version(s) with both motors. Just the reverse of what they are doing today on the Model S. I doubt the cost of doing this is prohibitive, if they sense a marketing advantage. I agree it is unlikely they'd do all three options, though, so I'd expect either FWD or RWD and AWD; or just AWD. There is also the wild-card: what if Tesla goes for one motor per wheel in Model 3. In that case they would be even more free to dream.

For me only one thing is sure and that's my opinion: I wouldn't say the days of FWD are numbered. If I had to bet, I'd sooner think RWD will loose to in-wheel-AWD (the ultimate torque vectoring) and FWD will pick up the rest, relegating RWD to the token legacy-spirited track-weapon. Time will tell if my view is correct or not.

 

[Twiglett]

This is what I love about both this forum and EV folks in general - we let our ideas fly
Although I have to admit that I hope that it is actually FWD that is relegated to the token "cheap ICE" car market!!
I love the idea of one motor per wheel though.

Also funny is how this thread about pictures of the Model 3 has slowly migrated to the drive type, give it a page or two more and the thread about Model 3 being AWD will migrate to the design

 

[AnxietyRanger]

This is what I love about both this forum and EV folks in general - we let our ideas fly
Although I have to admit that I hope that it is actually FWD that is relegated to the token "cheap ICE" car market!!
I love the idea of one motor per wheel though.

Also funny is how this thread about pictures of the Model 3 has slowly migrated to the drive type, give it a page or two more and the thread about Model 3 being AWD will migrate to the design

BTW, I'm not an FWD fan either so what I wrote above is not a wish. I just think the mainstream car market might accept FWD better than RWD - at least that Tesla or other EV makers may consider it because of that.

 

[igotzzoom]

I would point out that FWD in an ICE is not due to driving characteristics but manufacturing and componentry issues.
All normal ICE cars have the engine in the front, so in order to drive the rear wheels the have the shaft running down the center of the car to the rear wheels.
That makes manufacturing complex - and more expensive.
A FWD ICE is installed as a single component in the front of the car, making building it dramatically cheaper and easier.
That is why cheaper cars are FWD.
For an EV none of that applies and using RWD is much simpler and easier, no complex steering and universal joints needed.
So RWD is cheaper to build in an EV than FWD.
Unless you are an existing manufacturer with an ICE FWD model that you are converting to EV, like Nissan, GM etc

^^This. As I said before, assuming FWD is more appealing and/or familiar to consumers is somewhat of a red herring. The reason it has been adopted so broadly is ease of manufacturing, with the engine, transmission and driveline able to be installed as a single module. Based on what I've seen of most drivers, most couldn't tell you which wheels are driving their car. Although enthusiasts tend to run in tight circles, and "talk shop" with fellow gearheads, most consumers are shockingly ignorant about their cars, in my experience. I still think the Model 3 will be rear-motor/rear-drive standard, with a dual-motor option.

 

[gregincal]

^^This. As I said before, assuming FWD is more appealing and/or familiar to consumers is somewhat of a red herring. The reason it has been adopted so broadly is ease of manufacturing, with the engine, transmission and driveline able to be installed as a single module. Based on what I've seen of most drivers, most couldn't tell you which wheels are driving their car. Although enthusiasts tend to run in tight circles, and "talk shop" with fellow gearheads, most consumers are shockingly ignorant about their cars, in my experience. I still think the Model 3 will be rear-motor/rear-drive standard, with a dual-motor option.

I agree with this and also what has been stated before. Elon/Tesla will do it whichever way they feel is best, and the belief that customers might be more comfortable with FWD will not influence them one iota. They are going to be selling as many as they can make for a while either way.

 

[hobbes]

Wow, that looks good! Really like it the most of all the designs people suggested. Especially the proportions are nice. Think the size would be a good fit for the Model 3, too.

Once again, I'd like to make the case for the Skoda Vision D concept from 2011. Of course the front does not have the Tesla family trademarks (Volkswagen group heritage is obvious), but as for size and general shape/feel I think this would work. I especially like the rear - i think they call this style 'fastback", but i could be wrong.
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