Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

PMAC vs induction motor for model 3

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
why did they use an induction motor then for the S/X

This was their argument when making the Roadster:

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors

Obviously they were going to be more in favour of the solution that they chose, of course. :)

I really read this as "AC induction motors in EVs are, at least for the near future, a dead-tech walking". Tesla was really the big holdout - everyone else was going PM. This seems to be saying to me, "PM wins"
 
Last edited:
why did they use an induction motor then for the S/X

Also:

Price-history-for-neodymium-and-dysprosium-rare-earth-materials-7.png


The Roadster's powertrain traces its origins back to AC Propulsion's AC-150 drivetrain from the tzero. If Tesla had been thinking about switching motors for the Model S, they would have been having to arrange for neodymium and dysprosium suppliers in 2011. I think that price spike would have warded off any company thinking of abandoning induction in favour of PM. Prices were already trending up in 2010, but took off like a rocket in 2011 when China threatened to cut off supplies. Ironically, in the long term China's threat has been good to the market, as there's been increasing work to diversify sources since then. High, steady demand will also help make the market more resistant to price spikes.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: tracksyde and Runt8
To everyone who is obsessing over the PM vs. AC induction motor...

The vast majority of Tesla buyers could care less about this issue, it's meaningless to them. They want to know "How far will it go?", and "Where/how do I charge it?".
Read about the original research and why. I don't see anything new to change these conclusions from 2007.
Avoiding magnets for easy of assembly and lower costs. Spend money on software controlling of motor.
Continuous improvements over time ... as we have seen acceleration times improve.

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors
 
Model 3 doesn't use a DC motor. The AC in PMAC stands for AC ;)
Cool, you can read titles - can you actually read the article?
"Unlike the DC brushless rotor, the induction rotor has no magnets"
How about that? No magnets. lower costs, easier to assemble, BUT tricky, so you need a fancy inverter with fancy software to control it. ...
Actual reading of the article will explain the details of why.
 
Cool, you can read titles - can you actually read the article?
"Unlike the DC brushless rotor, the induction rotor has no magnets"
How about that? No magnets. lower costs, easier to assemble, BUT tricky, so you need a fancy inverter with fancy software to control it. ...
Actual reading of the article will explain the details of why.

The PMAC needs an even more "tricky" inverter. Just stop arguing with one article you read and only comprehend 50%.
 
Yeah... the whole thing is a bit confusing. My understanding is that in a DC motor speed is controlled by voltage. In an AC motor it's frequency.

By definition, all EV motors have aspects of both DC and AC. DC because the battery only gives DC. AC because magnetic fields must oscillate to create motion. It's the nature of how it's done that's the issue on hand.

It used to be simpler. There used to be two types of motor:
  • Brushed DC, using a permanent magnet, fed by a DC power supply (the brushes form part of a commutator that reverses the path that the supplied DC current flows through the windings as the motor rotates, oscillate the magnetic fields in time with the rotor's position)
  • AC induction, with no permanent magnet, fed by an AC power supply (fixed frequency, voltage, current), which reverses the current flow through the windings to oscillate the magnetic fields at the rate of the supplied AC.
So you had one that took DC, and one that took AC. Easy enough, they're just named after their supply. For an EV of the day, like the early Baker Electrics, was there any question as to which you'd use? Brushed DC of course, because you had a DC power supply. You didn't have tiny, powerful DC/AC converters back then! AC induction motors were for things hooked up to the grid, which you couldn't do with DC motors. Nice easy distinction.

Of course, today we have powerful control electronics that can convert between DC and AC with ease while varying voltage, current, and frequency. We also have more motor options - brushless "DC", reluctance, synchronous, doubly-fed, etc. To reiterate, in an EV, all of their power is originally DC, and for all motors, power in their windings must be AC. And for modern EVs, they're all going through control electronics that take the DC and create AC in some form or another, with a lot of waveform sculpting. So calling some "DC" and others "AC" is really a misnomer. People still tend to use the old nomenclature, however, of permanent magnet motors being "DC" and others being "AC", even though that's not an actual distinction between the motor types.
 
Last edited:
If nothing else, this thread reinforces two lessons:
1. Always assume there's some chance you may be wrong (it will keep you from making embarrassing statements and bullying people)
2. Expect Tesla to follow first principles and change course when they need to (here, it's motors; in the future, battery tech?)
 
  • Like
Reactions: lukex4