Poll: Is FSD a complete crock?

[Az_Rael]

All the currently released FSD features are part of the Enhanced Autopilot option package that was sold before March 2019. The old FSD package was supposed to be fully autonomous. Tesla sold it beginning in Nov 2016 and there still aren't any released features for that package. The new FSD package is not promised to be autonomous, has actual released features, and is much less of a "crock" IMHO.View attachment 463168

Hmm, looking at that old description again, that implies Park Seek mode will be an FSD only feature, however Elon has tweeted EAP folks will be getting Park Seek.

It seems like as time goes on, the old lines between the two packages get more and more blurred by Tesla. I am guessing the only real thing we will be getting above and beyond EAP will be the hardware upgrade.

 

[DanCar]

Remember, you said driver intervention, not driver engagement. A driver intervention would mean that the driver has to disengage AP. So 25% of commutes with no driver interventions means that 75% of commutes would require the driver to disengage AP at least once, presumably because AP can't handle the type of intersection, or type of road, or construction zone, etc... So I could consider that a very low bar. That would not be feature complete at all.

Are you sure, it is not the other way around, 25% with driver intervention? That would make more sense because it would mean that FSD could handle 75% of commutes.

Yes sure. And I still think it is a very high bar even if they reach 10% of commutes not needing driver intervention.

 

[Dubes]

All the currently released FSD features are part of the Enhanced Autopilot option package that was sold before March 2019. The old FSD package was supposed to be fully autonomous. Tesla sold it beginning in Nov 2016 and there still aren't any released features for that package. The new FSD package is not promised to be autonomous, has actual released features, and is much less of a "crock" IMHO.View attachment 463168

Interesting, thanks. It appears it is taking Tesla longer to get there than they thought. Of course even Waymo is having a hard time with self driving. I do understand why some people might be disappointed though. I am actually impressed with how fast this is happening and how much progress Tesla has actually accomplished. Real FSD is a monumental task!!

 

[electronblue]

Hmm, looking at that old description again, that implies Park Seek mode will be an FSD only feature, however Elon has tweeted EAP folks will be getting Park Seek.

It seems like as time goes on, the old lines between the two packages get more and more blurred by Tesla. I am guessing the only real thing we will be getting above and beyond EAP will be the hardware upgrade.

Well, I noted this quite recently... Tesla doesn’t seem to care at all what was sold to us back in 2016 and onwards. Everything originally slated for FSD (eight camera features) has come out for EAP or is said to come out for EAP (Park Seek). And Early Access Program (ironically also EAP) did not come for FSD owners either as was promised...

There is no Park Seek in EAP description and indeed Park Seek was one of the features of the 2016 FSD video...

But it is clear they just don’t care anymore.

This is what we bought back then, EAP was supposed to be this four camera system out in December 2016... Then again even AP1 was supposed to get Navigation-based exit taking in December 2016, that never happened either...

 

[electronblue]

Interesting, thanks. It appears it is taking Tesla longer to get there than they thought. Of course even Waymo is having a hard time with self driving. I do understand why some people might be disappointed though. I am actually impressed with how fast this is happening and how much progress Tesla has actually accomplished. Real FSD is a monumental task!!

I doubt anyone expected actual Full Self-driving by now. We did expect features for our money though with good reason. Here are some key points:

- In October 2016 Tesla announced that Enhanced Autopilot (think NoA, Smart Summon) would be out in December 2016. (It was out in September 2019.)

- In January 2017 Tesla announced that first differentiating features for Full Self-driving package (things above Enhanced Autopilot) would be out in 3-6 months ”definitely”. (In October 2019 not a single feature has ever shipped that is for this original Full Self-driving package. Not a single one.)

- Tesla also promised an FSD coast-to-coast demo drive by end of 2017. Never happened of course.

- Around May 2018, Tesla settled a lawsuit on these delays promising to pay up to $280 to U.S. owners, but as a PR move they also promised to pay the same to international customers. I have not heard of a single case where international customers would have received this promised money though.

- In early 2019 Tesla slashed the upgrade price for the original Full Self-driving package to around half, meaning everyone who paid prior to that paid double for receiving no features at all.

- In March 2019 Tesla announced they would give early FSD buyers invitations to the Early Access Program as compensation. They later deleted this announcement silently, never delivered those invites and has not given any meaningful priority to early FSD buyers at all.

- In October 2019 Tesla said the first feature expected for Full Self-driving, Park Seek, would actually come out also for Enhanced Autopilot seemingly denying once more any return for money for Tesla bought three years ago — and many coming to the end of their leases without anything delivered for the FSD feature.

- Tesla has said FSD buyer retrofits of the FSD Computer will happen in Q4/2019, so there is that. Let’s hope they stick to their word there?

 

[Az_Rael]

Well, I noted this quite recently... Tesla doesn’t seem to care at all what was sold to us back in 2016 and onwards. Everything originally slated for FSD (eight camera features) has come out for EAP or is said to come out for EAP (Park Seek). And Early Access Program (ironically also EAP) did not come for FSD owners either as was promised...

There is no Park Seek in EAP description and indeed Park Seek was one of the features of the 2016 FSD video...

But it is clear they just don’t care anymore.

This is what we bought back then, EAP was supposed to be this four camera system out in December 2016... Then again even AP1 was supposed to get Navigation-based exit taking in December 2016, that never happened either...

Well maybe the Park Seek tweet will fall under the “Elon says a lot of things” category and won’t actually be implemented that way.

I was pretty unhappy about the camera thing when that happened. That was one of my main reasons for buying FSD at the time.

 

[DanCar]

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

From the ending paragraph:

... as Teslas proliferate on the world’s roads, there will be more Autopilot fatalities. “The biggest PR nightmares are ahead,” ...

 

[MichaelP90DL]

I'm a skeptic about FSD. I mean, everyone encounters bizarre situations on the road, and there are places where you wonder whether even the most sophisticated computer driving system could react correctly. But then Tesla has hundreds of thousands of cars out there with Autopilot and those systems are in constant learning mode, according to recent reports. They monitor road conditions/situations, consider how they car would respond if not in learning mode, observe how the human driver responds, then transmit that data back to Tesla. Hundreds of thousands of cars doing all that, daily. If SpaceX can land a spent rocket booster on a barge at sea, then Tesla can figure out full self driving. I remain a skeptic and I really hope Tesla pulls it off in brilliant style.

 

[DanCar]

I think everyone thinks Tesla will pull it off. What remains in question is what time frame and to what degree. Even the biggest skeptics think this will be solved in ten years, although might require remote driving assistance at times and driver take over in difficult situations (snow, ice, fog).

 

[KJD]

Poll: Is FSD a complete crock?

Yes a complete rip off for $3,000.

 

[MichaelP90DL]

I think you can expect federal and state governments to regulate FSD when it's finally unleashed on the roads. I wouldn't be at all surprised that those folks will tell you when and where you can use it. Famed Miracle on the Hudson pilot, Sully S., thinks FSD is far from ready. Tesla ought to recruit him to evaluate it and (hopefully) sign off on it.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I think everyone thinks Tesla will pull it off. What remains in question is what time frame and to what degree. Even the biggest skeptics think this will be solved in ten years, although might require remote driving assistance at times and driver take over in difficult situations (snow, ice, fog).

I have no idea how long it will take. I don't even know if it's solvable. The expensive systems aren't anywhere near good enough yet. The most successful systems might be GM/Cruise, because only because that pulled in some substantial investment.

The only confidence I have is that driver assistance systems will continue to improve and become cheaper.

Fortunately we've got past the AI hype to the reality that AI is quickly deployed when the cost of failure is zero to low, so improving the success rate is what matters. But when the cost of failure is high, we see demos, and failed products.

 

[Buckarooo]

M3 with "FSD" and HW3.0 (I guess?) purchased September 2019.

Complete crock/false advertising/call it what you want.

Until there is a class action and/or a full refund of our $6k, it will remain a problem.

 

[diplomat33]

M3 with "FSD" and HW3.0 (I guess?) purchased September 2019.

Complete crock/false advertising/call it what you want.

Until there is a class action and/or a full refund of our $6k, it will remain a problem.

The FSD you have in your car now is not the full software. Tesla has not released the full FSD yet. So how can you adequately judge if it is a crock or not when you are not judging the finished product?

 

[Buckarooo]

Because I was promised by end of year. And it is nowhere close.

Latest update lets us see cones (and the occasional fire hydrant mistaken for a cone). That's great, but with 2 months to go it seems like we're more than a little behind schedule.

 

[diplomat33]

Because I was promised by end of year. And it is nowhere close.

Latest update lets us see cones (and the occasional fire hydrant mistaken for a cone). That's great, but with 2 months to go it seems like we're more than a little behind schedule.

Yes FSD is behind schedule. It happens sometimes when doing a really difficult project.

 

[Buckarooo]

Yes FSD is behind schedule. It happens sometimes when doing a really difficult project.

Doesn't matter. Should have been communicated better, especially when fronting $6k.

We all need to admit that we were ripped off yet again by a man that chronically overpromises and underdelivers.

 

[Dubes]

Doesn't matter. Should have been communicated better, especially when fronting $6k.

We all need to admit that we were ripped off yet again by a man that chronically overpromises and underdelivers.

What did you think you were getting? I did my research and asked around and am extremely happy with FSD. It is as I expected. A futuristic product light-years ahead of the competition. You should sell your car if you are not happy with it. Do your research next time.

 

[Buckarooo]

What did you think you were getting? I did my research and asked around and am extremely happy with FSD. It is as I expected. A futuristic product light-years ahead of the competition. You should sell your car if you are not happy with it. Do your research next time.

What exactly are you happy with above and beyond the standard AP available in all models? I genuinely want to know.

Yes, I thought I was getting something ahead of the competition. Not years behind Waymo and probably GM too.

 

[MichaelP90DL]

What exactly are you happy with above and beyond the standard AP available in all models? I genuinely want to know.

Yes, I thought I was getting something ahead of the competition. Not years behind Waymo and probably GM too.

I have a suspicion that GM and Waymo are pretty far behind. We'll find out soon enough. It's always Tesla that gets the publicity.