[POLL] Will base model M3 beat the Chevy Bolt's 238 mile EPA range?

[MXWing]

8 pages and not sure if the most important question was asked:

Can the Bolt drive more than 100 miles before turning around due to lack of nationwide fast DC charging infrastructure network?

I have $3500 private offer for a Chevy Bolt. Between that and negotiating 5k off sticker, that's $8500k off.

Not worth it.

 

[SageBrush]

If that is really true, then GM overpriced this car.
I would also expect Tesla to sell a large number of Model 3's if this is the case.

That is the price of the highest trim offered. The base IIRC is $37.5k and another $500 for CCS

I've read for a while now that ~ $4,000 dealer discounts are offered in California so a base Bolt is ~ $34k and combined state and federal credit could shave another $9,500 off the price. And yet inventory swells. The Bolt is now up to ~ 111 days (based on 6000 cars on lots) and GM just announced a 30 day factory closure.

Ignoring for a moment the garish emblem on the nose that reminds everybody that the car is a Chevy and the manufacturer is GM, pricing the car above Tesla, and without a charging network in the same ball-park as Tesla is a recipe for failure. Two years ago GM must have gambled that Tesla would be late to market or fail to appear. Too bad for them, the gamble failed.

 

[R.S]

Without use in actual cars, I reject your assertion that they are Tesla grade. That remains to be seen.

Induction motors aren't miracle work. But I guess there is no way to really convince you here. The reason why they aren't used is because PMSMs are more efficient in city driving and the cost savings of an induction motor aren't substantial enough to justify it.

I still think they would be the better choice, but driving cycles demand PMSMs, not induction motors.

 

[SageBrush]

The reason why they aren't used is because PMSMs are more efficient in city driving and the cost savings of an induction motor aren't substantial enough to justify it.

Tesla appears to disagree

 

[R.S]

Tesla appears to disagree

No they don't, but

a) Tesla has a lot more powerful motors and cheap cells, so induction motors might help here. My comment was tailored to the motors used in EVs other than Teslas, so Leafs, i3s (which uses a very interesting motor concept), Zoes, or Volts. They have much smaller motors, so going for permanent magnets makes more sense, than for a 700hp P100D.

b) Induction motors are more efficient in the field weakening range, because you reduce current, whereas the PMSM reduces back EMF. So at highway speeds, where you really need the extra efficiency, the induction motor is the better choice. In diving cycles, which value city driving higher in efficiency tests, for good reason, an induction motor will always be worse. So Tesla works more consumer oriented here, which I personally like a lot better.

 

[McRat]

8 pages and not sure if the most important question was asked:

Can the Bolt drive more than 100 miles before turning around due to lack of nationwide fast DC charging infrastructure network?

I have $3500 private offer for a Chevy Bolt. Between that and negotiating 5k off sticker, that's $8500k off.

Not worth it.

You keep repeating the same spiel, but you post you live in Orange County, CA. There are several hundred DCFC locations for the Bolt in California.

But feel free to ask it again dozens of times in this thread like you have in others.

Technically, you can get Farm Bureau, GM Point, Fed $7500, and SCE $450 discounts also. And perhaps the $2500 California EV program if they ever restart it.

 

[Topher]

It looks like GM sandbagged a little and advertise the Bolt a little shy of it's best case, real world range (not hypermiling experiments) and Tesla goes to the edge of what is possible with the most careful real world driving.

So you're saying that both GM and Tesla cheated on the EPA tests?

Thank you kindly.

 

[McRat]

So you're saying that both GM and Tesla cheated on the EPA tests?

Thank you kindly.

There is no law that says you cannot submit pessimistic numbers to the EPA. Only optimistic numbers cause legal problems.

It is not unusual for GM to under report performance values.

 

[MXWing]

You keep repeating the same spiel, but you post you live in Orange County, CA. There are several hundred DCFC locations for the Bolt in California.

But feel free to ask it again dozens of times in this thread like you have in others.

Technically, you can get Farm Bureau, GM Point, Fed $7500, and SCE $450 discounts also. And perhaps the $2500 California EV program if they ever restart it.

I have no intention to be dishonest hence not including Fed, SCE, California EV because M3 qualifies for the same discounts.
5k off sticker (easily negotiated)
3.5k (Chevy begging me to come to their dealership)
Total = 8.5k off a Bolt minus any other incentives.

STILL NOT WORTH IT.

Now we are talking apples to apples - I am wondering if I can get $5K off list on a Model 3 and a Tesla offer to me to get another $3.5k off that.

I think not....

Oh and regarding DCFC - I have to get an OPTIONAL upgrade on the Bolt. I have to research the station locations, not have the charging be transparent in my GPS and also take longer to charge because I'm not getting 100KW

Can I decide to just go "Navigate to Tropicana, Las Vegas" on a Bolt and make it happen?

You might as well long $GM, short $TSLA with how defensive you are on a vastly inferior vehicle.

 

[McRat]

I have no intention to be dishonest hence not including GM Point, Fed, SCE, California EV because M3 qualifies for the same discounts.
5k off sticker (easily negotiated)
3.5k (Chevy begging me to come to their dealership)
Total = 8.5k off a Bolt minus any other incentives.

STILL NOT WORTH IT.

Now we are talking apples to apples - I am wondering if I can get $5K off list on a Model 3 and a Tesla offer to me to get another $3.5k off that.

I think not....

Oh and regarding DCFC

Can I decide to just go "Navigate to Tropicana, Las Vegas" on a Bolt and make it happen?

No, you stop in Victorville, top off, and drive. It's being done.

 

[MXWing]

No, you stop in Victorville, top off, and drive. It's being done.

Added to my post since I have experience on how it would in a Tesla vs a Bolt.

And I wonder if you didn't know and you weren't sold a fast charger on your Bolt.

Maybe customer didn't know the ramifications of not having a DCFC.
Maybe customer didn't need it now but regretted the decision later.
What if a scrupulous car salesman just offloaded whatever or baited them with a bigger discount to move a non DCFC vehicle.

Worst case is an EV owner screws over another EV owner by downplaying or hoping another buyer doesn't notice a lack of DCFC on the secondary market..

The amount of stupid required to deal with a Bolt makes is inane compared to a Model 3 for any travel beyond 100 miles.

Bottom line, whatever the Bolt EPA range is. Add an * to it

*number specified is one-way trip under the most ideal of conditions. Plan your charging in advance, stay overnight, or be towed home.

 

[wdolson]

Same here. I'm buying a Model 3 no matter what. And I'll get a Model Y no matter what. I'd have an S and X now if not for their ginormous size - just too much aluminum for my needs therefore totally impractical and thus I chose to drive my ICEs into the ground and wait.

My SO feels similar. She likes my Model S, except for the size and she's not a fan of sedans. She's hoping the Model Y will be decent.

 

[McRat]

...

The amount of stupid required to deal with a Bolt makes is inane compared to a Model 3 for any travel beyond 100 miles.

...

Currently, the Bolt you buy today as has longer range than the Model 3 you buy today.

 

[Model 3]

Usually it's always the OEMs own development, no matter if they had one single engineer working on it. They pay the bills, they get to decide. The suppliers seldom get any credit. Have you ever heard Elon praise Panasonic for their great work? And he is one of the nicer guys in the business.

If an OEM is getting products "off the shelf" from a supplier it is the supplier that owns the product and the design and all tech inside whatever product they sell. The OEM may pay extra to get exclusive access to this product, but they still do not own it. The OEM may turn down all the "off the shelf" products and order for a modified product that meets their needs, then the OEM owns all modifications they made to the original product, but the supplier still owns the rest. Only it the OEM does all the design, and owns the tech already and order a product from a supplier that do not build upon any tech the supplier already owns, the OEM will own the hole product they get delivered from the supplier.

So if it is true that GM owns the chemistry inside the battery cells they get LG to produce, then GM must have designed this by them self and do not build on LG's existing cells that LG already do sell to other customers. And I do think they would need more then one single engineer to work on this...


Tesla I do believe have ordered "off the self" battery cells from Panasonic with some Tesla specific modifications that they do own. And Panasonic is then not allowed to sell this same cells with the modifications from Tesla to any other customers. Exactly how much of tech in the battery cells that Tesla own and how much Panasonic own is unclear to me.

 

[MXWing]

Currently, the Bolt you buy today as has longer range than the Model 3 you buy today.

Model 3

107 Daily Round Trip / Nationwide Travel at 100KW Charging

vs

Bolt

119 Daily Round Trip / No realistic nationwide travel, highly inconvenient intrastate travel IF DCFC installed and route meticulously planned)

--

Are you like a secret GM car dealer or something? The two do not compare. I go for bigger battery in case that 12 miles makes a difference for daily driving.

 

[TaoJones]

I amend my vote - while the base model may have less than 238 miles, the first Model 3s available to customers will have more.

 

[jeremyz]

No they don't, but

a) Tesla has a lot more powerful motors and cheap cells, so induction motors might help here. My comment was tailored to the motors used in EVs other than Teslas, so Leafs, i3s (which uses a very interesting motor concept), Zoes, or Volts. They have much smaller motors, so going for permanent magnets makes more sense, than for a 700hp P100D.

b) Induction motors are more efficient in the field weakening range, because you reduce current, whereas the PMSM reduces back EMF. So at highway speeds, where you really need the extra efficiency, the induction motor is the better choice. In diving cycles, which value city driving higher in efficiency tests, for good reason, an induction motor will always be worse. So Tesla works more consumer oriented here, which I personally like a lot better.

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors

 

[JeffK]

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors

Yeah, great quote from that article:

One of the main differences is that much less rotor heat is generated with the DC brushless drive. Rotor cooling is easier and peak point efficiency is generally higher for this drive. The DC brushless drive can also operate at unity power factor, whereas the best power factor for the induction drive is about 85 percent. This means that the peak point energy efficiency for a DC brushless drive will typically be a few percentage points higher than for an induction drive.

But when performance is concerned you'd typically want induction.

In contrast, induction machines have no magnets and B fields are “adjustable,” since B is proportionate to V/f (voltage to frequency). This means that at light loads the inverter can reduce voltage such that magnetic losses are reduced and efficiency is maximized. Thus, the induction machine when operated with a smart inverter has an advantage over a DC brushless machine – magnetic and conduction losses can be traded such that efficiency is optimized. This advantage becomes increasingly important as performance is increased. With DC brushless, as machine size grows, the magnetic losses increase proportionately and part load efficiency drops. With induction, as machine size grows, losses do not necessarily grow. Thus, induction drives may be the favored approach where high-performance is desired; peak efficiency will be a little less than with DC brushless, but average efficiency may actually be better.

 

[SageBrush]

Can I decide to just go "Navigate to Tropicana, Las Vegas" on a Bolt and make it happen?

Sure ..
Spend an hour in Victorville charging, then
Drive 55 mph without A/C to Las Vegas

Just hope the roads are smooth and no headwinds

No problemo

 

[SageBrush]

But when performance is concerned you'd typically want induction.

Notice this last sentence

Thus, induction drives may be the favored approach where high-performance is desired; peak efficiency will be a little less than with DC brushless, but average efficiency may actually be better.