Pure BEV Dogma

[JRP3]

I mostly agree with all that, though I'm less concerned about what personal choice a person makes, HEV, PHEV, or EV, but how they characterize it. If you want to say you drive an EV you don't get to drive a PHEV and call it an EV, or an EV with a range extender. It just creates confusion.

 

[doug]

... I'm less concerned about what personal choice a person makes, HEV, PHEV, or EV, but how they characterize it.

So you're more concerned with semantics than actual behavior??

 

[JRP3]

Well I probably can't get someone to buy a vehicle they don't want but I might be able to get them to use the correct terminology, which will help avoid confusion such as "The Volt is a $40K EV with only 40 miles of range". Proper information might actually lead to someone making a better purchase choice. Ultimately I am concerned with behavior, which can be influenced by accurate information.

 

[SByer]

As far as I'm concerned, it's a hybrid if it can take in energy in at least two forms. No, I don't think the Prius is a hybrid. The Volt is the first. And for at least a while, it's going to be the best. By a long shot so far.

And, while Toyota may have done the hybrid equivalent of the EV-er marketing crap, they at least pre-prepped 'the chicken masses' who are inherently scared of anything different that 'hybrids' are OK. GM has to bring the cost down, but it's a damned good car.

I'd like to see the most electric miles the fastest, and the Volt is a key part in booting up that initial part of that curve. Yes, eventually, pure EVs will be obviously better (I challenge Tesla to make that happen!). But strong hybrids (with a total of one available model right now - to me the Fisker is a weak hybrid, can't make it better by putting in batteries and ditching the engine) are a good bridge for the next few years while EV technology gets past early adopters and into early mainstream.


I think as both strong hybrids (when more exist!) and pure electrics get more popular, the semantics will sort themselves out. Nothing will delve into sorting out niggly semantic details like a bunch of reformed petrol heads discussing battery weight vs. power delivery and the extra weight and drag of a hybrid drivetrain on 1/4 mile time.

Like all major transitions, this isn't a zero sum game.

(Edit: Man, all that and I forgot to work in how idiotic - or at least very inoculated against change - GM's marketing department was to screw up such a good technological achievement with the lies and half truths early on!)

 

[JRP3]

As far as I'm concerned, it's a hybrid if it can take in energy in at least two forms.

That would make a propane/gas ICE or a CNG/gas ICE or a Veggie oil/diesel ICE all hybrids.

No, I don't think the Prius is a hybrid.

You discount the most successful hybrid as not being a hybrid? It does have two energy storage devices, a gas tank and a battery bank, and both contribute to moving the vehicle, and the batteries can take in energy from regen braking. Seems like a hybrid, even by your definition.

 

[Norbert]

(Edit: Man, all that and I forgot to work in how idiotic - or at least very inoculated against change - GM's marketing department was to screw up such a good technological achievement with the lies and half truths early on!)

Trying to advocate the Volt, at least as an EV enthusiast, appears to have an odd effect on the human mind. Originally I blamed the upside-down GM marketing strategy for that, but meanwhile I'm wondering if that department is just the first victim, and not the cause.

 

[neroden]

So you're more concerned with semantics than actual behavior??

Hey, some of us are like that! Some of us really care about clarity of conveying information. Call it a personality quirk.

 

[neroden]

US price doesn't include sales tax (?).

Correct, US price is before sales tax. That's the difference. So you were quoting a number *with VAT*. Let's recompute! 20% VAT, 1.6 dollars to the pound.

The UK 85kWh standard model should be a little over (69900+7500) * 1.2 / 1.6 = 58050 pounds sterling, after VAT. 65000 would be a 10% premium, which is, I suppose, plausible for shipping and homologation and cushion for exchange rate fluctuation.

But you said you'd sell the Ampera for a car with 150 miles "real" range and 40K pounds price. The model S base model should actually do that (your speed limits aren't that high), so (49900 + 7500) * 1.2 / 1.6 = 43050 pounds sterling.

So again, the Model S really is very close to the car you're looking for, and Bluestar will probably be the car you're looking for. I can't see the UK Model S coming in at 65K pounds unless Tesla is price-gouging. Which they do; the Signature is frankly overpriced.

I certainly don't blame you for getting a more affordable car. For reference, my Signature is coming in at $103K before delivery fees, and that's without the panoramic roof or rear-facing seats. That's ferociously expensive, and I am *not* getting exactly the car I'd want (I'd buy a compact with differently designed seats), which makes me conflicted about it.

 

[dpeilow]

Trying to advocate the Volt, at least as an EV enthusiast, appears to have an odd effect on the human mind.

More dogma.

Have you driven it?


@neroden - that's a straw man because you asume a 10% uplift and then take it as fact for the rest of the post. FYI the premium for the Roadster here is 26% and that's with a substantial chunk of the car's value originating over here...

 

[Norbert]

More dogma.

Have you driven it?

I'm not talking about the Volt. I'm talking about trying to advocate it.

 

[dpeilow]

Have you driven it?

 

[Norbert]

Is the thread title "Pure BEV Dogma" yours?

 

[doug]

That would make a propane/gas ICE or a CNG/gas ICE or a Veggie oil/diesel ICE all hybrids.

Strictly speaking, they are hybrids of sorts (and are sometimes called as such), just not hybrid electric.

You discount the most successful hybrid as not being a hybrid? It does have two energy storage devices, a gas tank and a battery bank, and both contribute to moving the vehicle, and the batteries can take in energy from regen braking. Seems like a hybrid, even by your definition.

But as far as the car is concerned, all that energy started as gas, even energy recouped via regen braking. Again semantics, though, I do see Scott's point.

 

[doug]

So you're more concerned with semantics than actual behavior??

Hey, some of us are like that! Some of us really care about clarity of conveying information. Call it a personality quirk.

I too care about accuracy and clarity in language, particularly in a technical discussion (as which this thread does not qualify). But don't put the cart before the horse.

I prefer the term "plug-in hybrid" to "range-extended EV", or whatever (though there does need to be some distinction between types of PHEVs). I also have been annoyed by GM marketing. But I still see the Volt as a very important car and I encourage people to check it out along with other cars that have a plug. I care more about people driving it than what they call it.
Words matter, yes. But actions matter more.

 

[dpeilow]

Is the thread title "Pure BEV Dogma" yours?

Yes. And I'll take the lack of response to my question as a no.

There seems to be a few people lacking in imagination to see that there is a world of difference between the PHEV class vehicles with a small amount of electric boost that Toyota exemplify and a vehicle with a real amount of useful full electric performance. The Volt is not a series hybrid in the original sense of the term, which some people have also tried to label it as. I fully sympathise that GM had to come up with another moniker for a unique type of car and Range Extended Electric Vehicle pretty much describes what it is and does.

 

[Norbert]

Gas consumption:
3/3 : ICE (gas car)
2/3 : HEV (hybrid)
1/3 : PHEV (plug-in hybrid)
0 : EV (electric car)

 

[TEG]

Mention of this old article probably belongs in this thread:
Tesla's Elon Musk Continues War Of Aggression Against Volt, REVs

 

[GSP]

Gas consumption:
3/3 : ICE (gas car)
2/3 : HEV (hybrid)
1/3 : PHEV (plug-in hybrid)
0 : EV (electric car)

True only if your entire fleet is EVs. A one-car household with an EREV PHEV can end up using less gas since even their longer trips are partly EV miles, instead of using a gas or diesel car (rented or owned).


GSP

 

[Norbert]

True only if your entire fleet is EVs. A one-car household with an EREV PHEV can end up using less gas since even their longer trips are partly EV miles, instead of using a gas or diesel car (rented or owned).

True only if 1) your EV doesn't have the range wanted/needed, and 2) can't use fast charging sufficiently, and 3) if you also can't rent a PHEV.

 

[GSP]

Zero gas consumption can be achieved by a car like the Model S, with 320 mile range and 300 mph fast charging, and a sufficient charging network.

It cannot be achieved by driving an ICE (owned or rented), even if it is a PHEV. However, an EREV PHEV is as close to zero as you can get when the above solution is not available. Closer to zero than almost all households with an EV.

GSP